UK Relatives forum: * Hoare, Sieber

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ImageTwincol
Apr 25, 2010 6:24 AM CST
Name: Linda Anne
Central California, USA
I am attempting to learn two things, although heaven knows I have plenty of perhaps more important "genealogy" concerns. But the circumstances of my grandfather's childhood seem to fill my heart and mind for any number of reasons. And my mother would love to hear what we learn. As you will see below, his father died when he was only 11; his sibs were 6, 8, 10. His family was 3 gens (if my memory serves me correctly) in Cirencester, woolstaplers, Coxwell Street. The wool trade had crashed many years earlier, yet the family continued to thrive for a time. Nevertheless, it is doubtful if the family could have lived much longer in the trade. I haven't a clue how long the family retained the property ownership and worked in the trade.

My question? What happened to my grandfather's immediate family? Henriette returned to Switzerland for a time, yet it seems that she was back at least for a time. I don't know if one or more of his father's sibs returned/stayed at the house/business on Coxwell Street. But I am just trying to figure out what his childhood was like? Moving to and fro, or relatively stable? Education? How did they survive; did his family care for them, or was there an inheritance for her and the children? Am I making sense out of what I'm trying to learn? And I know that much of what I will learn will "just" lead mostly to supposition, but that's more than I have now. Whistling

He left England to come to the US so as to pursue a career as an interpreter for the Ambassador's Service, but lacked the proper educational credentials to accomplish that goal. Ultimately he opened a private day school in Florida and a summer camp for boys. I'm not sure he accomplished his goal of leaving the "class" society (in which his family would have been simple "tradesmen," I believe) which interfered with his path toward self-actualization, but it would seem that he enjoyed his work and was good at it.

SON Arthur Sieber HOARE b. Sep 1884, Cirencester, Gloucestershire, United Kingdom, d. 17 Jul 1955, Clearwater, Pinellas, Florida , USA

FA Francis HOARE, b. Dec1838 Cirencester, Gloucestershire d. 1Nov1895 Gloucester; Barnwood Asylum (presumably of syphillis, as there is no known family hx of "insanity");

MO Henriette SIEBER, b. 02 Feb 1851, Neuchâtel, Neuchâtel, Switzerland d. 27 April 1925, Cornaux, Neuchâtel, Switzerland

So there you go! Figuring out her movements in and out of England/Switzerland and how they lived. (BTW, I have several trophies of his as a participant in the Gloucester Rowing Club in 1904).

What do you think? Can we put some of the pieces together somehow?


I would dearly love to put some of the pieces together, Carol. Perhaps you can direct me to appropriate resources. I am a member of Ancestry.com.

Linda





Thumbnail by Twincol

\"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortal.\" Albert Pike
[Last edited Apr 25, 2010 1:57 PM CST]
Quote | Post #193453 (1)
Imageokus
Apr 27, 2010 3:02 AM CST
Name: Carol
Lincolnshire, UK
Sorry for the delay in responding I've been away for a few days.

A quick check of the 1891 UK census has Francis & Henrietta Hoare living at 21 Coxwell Court in Cirencester. He is "living on own means" which basically implies he was rather wealthy at that time and not "in trade".
The Household Members are:
Name Age
Francis Hoare 52
Henriette Hoare 40
Francis C Hoare 9
Arthur S Hoare 6
Evelyn Hoare 5
Nelda V Hoare 3
Charles E Hoare 2
Kate Stocker 21
Elizabeth Brown 26
Sarah Brown 23
Elizabeth Selby 24

Kate Stocker is the children's Governess and Elizabeth & Sarah Brown & Elizabeth Selby servants. Again this looks like a pretty prosperous household. Not many families ran to a private Governess even then.

Fancis died in the Oct Nov Dec quarter of 1895. His death certificate would give you more details of the cause of death and his occupation, if any. The following details would allow you to order it.
The GRo ordering service is at http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

Name: Francis Hoare
Estimated birth year: abt 1839
Year of Registration: 1895
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at Death: 56
District: Gloucester (1837-1937)
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 168

I will move on to other records in the next post - if they get too long they disappear into the ether! Smiling
Carol

Imageokus
Apr 27, 2010 5:21 AM CST
Name: Carol
Lincolnshire, UK
In the 1851 Francis was at home with his father Charles Hoare and siblings, no mother so perhaps she also died young? The address is Coxwell Street so may even be the same place as in the 1891 and Charles' occupation is Woolstapler and both he and the children were born in Cirencester

Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Hoare 53
Francis Hoare 12
Catherine Hoare 11
Louisa Maria Hoare 9
Julia Ann Whahefield 31
Mary Pash 18

Mary Pash is a servant and Julia Ann (probably Wakefield) is a visitor of Independant means
Carol

[Last edited Apr 27, 2010 5:37 AM CST]
Quote | Post #196070 (3)
Imageokus
Apr 27, 2010 5:27 AM CST
Name: Carol
Lincolnshire, UK
In the 1871 census both Charles and Francis are Woolstaplers Julia Wakefield is still there and described as sister-in-law and is now the housekeeper.
Henry Cook is a servant.

Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Hoare 73
Francis Hoare 32
Julia Wakefield 50
Henry Cook 30




Carol

Imageokus
Apr 27, 2010 5:35 AM CST
Name: Carol
Lincolnshire, UK
Going back to the 1841 Census Charles wife is Mary (presumably Wakefield) a lot younger than Charles who is already a Woolstapler and they are at the Coxwell Street address. There are two female servants Hannah Noyce and Sarah Wakefield, Sarah may be a sister or a cousin of Mary, both are born in the county.

Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Hoare 40
Mary Hoare 27
Francis Hoare 2
Catharine Hoare 1
Louisa Hoare 1 Mo
Hannah Noyce 20
Sarah Wakefield 15
Carol

Imageokus
Apr 27, 2010 5:45 AM CST
Name: Carol
Lincolnshire, UK
By 1881 Francis is married to Henrietta and living with his sister Catherine and her husband Arthur Canning, who is living on Investments, at Obelisk Road, Rydon Cottage, South Stoneham Hampshire. Francis is still a Woolstapler. Henrietta's place of birth is given as Neuchatel, Switzerland and her nationality as BS (which meand British Subject)

The two Elizabeths in the household are servants

Household Members:
Name Age
Arthur Richd. Canning 39
Catherine Canning 41
Mabel Hoare Canning 10
Arthur Lionel Canning 8
Chas.John Canning 6
Francis Hoare 42
Henrietta Hoare 29
Elizabeth Ann Clarke 16
Elizabeth Ann Wilsher 13
Carol

Imageokus
Apr 27, 2010 5:59 AM CST
Name: Carol
Lincolnshire, UK
I found them in the 1861 eventually the Hoare is spelled without an e on this one!

Julia Wakefield is described here as housekeeper and was also from Cirencester so Mary probably was too. Charles is head of household.

Charles is a widower, Francis is single. Charles is still a Wool Stapler, but Francis has a different occupation which I can't read. I will attach a snip of the census form so you can try yourself

Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Hoar 64
Francis Hoar 22
Catharine Hoar 27
Julia Wakefield 39
Louisa Hoar 19
Jane Townend 17


Thumbnail by okus

Carol

Imageokus
Apr 27, 2010 6:31 AM CST
Name: Carol
Lincolnshire, UK
In 1911 Henrietta is back in South Stoneham, Hampshire. The address is Woolston Lawn, 28 Obelisk Road, Woolston Heath, South Stoneham

Name Relationship Condition Sex Age Birth Year
Occupation Where Born


HOARE, Henrietta Head Widow F 60 1851
Private Means Switzerland Resident
HOARE, Evelyn Daughter Single F 25 1886 Glos Cirencester
HOARE, Hilda Victoria Daughter Single F 23 1888 Glos Cirencester
HOARE, Charles Edward Son Single M 22 1889
Bank Clerk Glos Cirencester
PEARCE, Kate Servant Single F 24 1887 General Servant Domestic Essex Braintree
SOLLEY, Ellen Minnie Servant Single F 19 1892 Housemaid Domestic Hants Southampton

That is a pretty smart sounding address and as you can see she was still of Independant means. Arthur is not with them.
Carol

[Last edited Apr 27, 2010 6:32 AM CST]
Quote | Post #196138 (8)
Imageokus
Apr 27, 2010 6:53 AM CST
Name: Carol
Lincolnshire, UK
I'm still looking for Arthur in 1901 and 1911 but I have found his emigration record
Passenger transcript details:

Name: Arthur Sieber HOARE
Date of departure: 1922
Port of departure: Southampton
Passenger destination port: New York, USA
Passenger destination: New York, USA
Date of Birth: 1884 (calculated from age)
Age: 38
Marital status: Married
Sex: Male
Occupation: Schoolmaster
Passenger recorded on: Page 18 of 31

Travelling with his wife:
Name: Elizabeth HOARE
Date of Birth: 1882 (calculated from age)
Age: 40
Marital status: Married
Sex: Female
Occupation: Hwife

and two children:
Name: Elizabeth HOARE
Date of Birth: 1922 (calculated from age)
Age: 6 Months
Sex: Female
Name: Francis HOARE
Date of Birth: 1918 (calculated from age)
Age: 4
Sex: Male
At the moment the image of the ships register is refusing to open so i can't gaet any further details
Carol

[Last edited Apr 27, 2010 7:11 AM CST]
Quote | Post #196155 (9)
Imageokus
Apr 27, 2010 7:15 AM CST
Name: Carol
Lincolnshire, UK
It seems the family arrived in England from Canada in May 1922 at which point they were already US citizens, so the journey above must have been the return trip. See attached snip from the ships manifest

Thumbnail by okus

Carol

Imageokus
Apr 27, 2010 8:26 AM CST
Name: Carol
Lincolnshire, UK
I have found a Francis Charles Hoare returning from Las Palmas onthe Canary Islands to the UK on May 26 1931 his occupation is given as Banker and his address is 71 Haymarket, London, SW1. There was no accompanying family so it could have been a business trip

This would tie in with the age of the Francis C - Arthur's elder brother - on the 1891 census and his younger brother is a Bank Clerk on the 1911 so Banking connections make sense.

That also makes me wonder about the Swiss connection - were Henrietta's people bankers. UK and Swiss banks had very strong links.

There is another arrival in 1929
Port of Departure: River Plate, South America
Arrival Date: 19 Apr 1929
and again the address is 71 Haymarket

also one in 1828
Port of Departure: Las Palmas, Spain
Arrival Date: 13 May 1928
Port of Arrival: Liverpool, England
Ports of Voyage: Madeira

This time his occupation is Bank Manager and the address:
The Coigne, Walton on Thames
In fact he seems to have been coming back to the UK almost every year in May, perhaps he took overseas holidays? It was not the norm in those days except among the very wealthy. ( Bank Managers usually were!!)
The last being in 1934

There is a death record for him in Gloucestershire in 1937.
Carol

Imageokus
Apr 27, 2010 9:12 AM CST
Name: Carol
Lincolnshire, UK
So to go back to your questions :- the whole family, except Francis C, is missing from the 1901 census, so it is probable that at that time Henrietta was back in Switzerland with her family.The elder children may well have been educated there, it was not uncommon amongst better off families for children to be "finished" in Switzerland and boarding schools were the norm.
In 1901 Francis was in South Stoneham with his father's sister Catherine and husband Arthur R. Canning ( still of independant means) There were two Canning sons and a 27 year old Millicent Hoare, single and a vistor, born in Bristol in the household as well as two servants. Francis was already a Bank Clerk.

Henriette was back in England, pretty settled and comfortably off by 1911. Francis and Arthur had left home by then but I have located Francis who was a Bank Clerk and living at 23 Castle Street, Dover, Kent where he was Head of household and had a John Nicholson Lodging with him.

I have found an Arthur Hoare, the right age who was single a schoolmaster (and Housemaster) in St Peters College, Radley, Abingdon Berkshire a large Boys Boarding School. However he gives his place of birth as Kensington, London and his middle names as John Shirley so it may not be the right man. 2 schoolmasters of that name and age would be unusual though!
Carol

Imageokus
Apr 27, 2010 9:41 AM CST
Name: Carol
Lincolnshire, UK
There is a family tree on Ancestry.co.uk that includes Henriette and Francis and several of the children but not Arthur. You may like to get in touch the owner is matthewnewton3 I think you should be able to contact him via Ancestry.com
Carol

Imageokus
Apr 27, 2010 9:49 AM CST
Name: Carol
Lincolnshire, UK
Henriette and Francis were married in the Strand area of London in the first quarter of 1881

I have also found a Caroline who I think must be a sister in London in 1881

Name: Caroline Sieber
Age: 35
Estimated birth year: abt 1846
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Neufchatel, Switzerland
Civil parish: St Georges Hanover
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 54 Berkeley Sq

I hope all that helps!!
Carol

Imageokus
Aug 28, 2010 4:15 AM CST
Name: Carol
Lincolnshire, UK
I have added the names to the database, rather belatedly...sorry! Please add some of your interesting pictures to the entry.

Carol
Carol

ImageTwincol
Oct 22, 2010 10:04 PM CST
Name: Linda Anne
Central California, USA
Speaking of belatedly, Carol . . . I just caught up with you. Give me a few and I'll get some uploaded. My 8YO laptop crashed and I'm just getting the new one on-board and missing all sorts of programs I need to accomplish my tasks. One of them is my photography application.

I have some neat pics to send ya'.

Linda
\"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortal.\" Albert Pike
ImageTwincol
Aug 21, 2011 2:27 PM CST
Name: Linda Anne
Central California, USA
Carol, oooh Caaaarol! I must must must be in touch with you. But I wanted to share with The Forum this attached "little tidbit" I found related to my extended family, who emigrated from the UK in 1850. The head of household, Edwin, died within just 2-3 weeks of arrival. Caroline took all children to Racine, WI. They are all present as "Hoare" in the 1860 census.

Then . . . then . . . THEN, after having searched and searched for months, I found that they had ALL legally changed their last name to "Howard."

Talk about brick walls!

I trust you are doing well.

Kindly,
Linda

Thumb of 2011-08-21/Twincol/dbbec1
\"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortal.\" Albert Pike
Imageokus
Aug 27, 2011 5:27 AM CST
Name: Carol
Lincolnshire, UK
They probably did it to avoid the mockery - Hoare is pronounced just like Whore!

I have several who changed their first names which is equally confusing. Spent ages hunting down a Bridget Mary McCormick to find her eventually calling herself Elizabeth. It stops life becoming dull anyway.

Carol
Carol

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