Main forum: Chat Thread #4
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| We came from here.... http://cubits.org/Atheists/thread/view/32010/#new_post Being amazed by Josie the Wonder Service Dog who bit a bee & scared everyone near to death!!! Looking forward to hearing about the selection criteria Juli used to find the Wonder Dog.  I have little confidence in any enterprise or business or investment that promises dividends only after the death of the stockholders. |
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| Oh, and wanna know how to train them to close the door behind them.... In the end, only kindness matters. Art and Artists & The Reading Room http://cubits.org/thereadingroom/ |
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We ought to start a solo forum for her story or a dedicated thread and invite members of the Cubits involved with Dog training...since it has nothing to do with our sniveling heathenist paganistics hearts/minds and bodies and only with Josie  They wouldn't have to come armed with verses to protect themselves...  Leap. The net will appear. |
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| Juli, I am so glad Josie is okay! "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss |
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| Scary, scary, scary!!! So glad she is ok! That's really strange. My idiot border collie catches and EATS yellow jackets. Not bees, not wasps, just yellow jackets. Never even had a swollen lip from it. But no accounting for allergies, and that's certainly what it sounds like.Confidence is that feeling you have right before you do something really stupid. |
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| Carol, I was asked to not come back to the "Dogs, All you every wanted to Know" cubit. I dared to give a different point of view than Lance. I don't think that physical force is the only way to train a dog. He sent me some really heated cmails. Lance said I was personally attacking him by sighting actual studies and science etc. backing up my point of view. He admits to never taking any real training, or reading any dog training books in the last 30 years... but hey, he is in the last stages of a doctorate. So I would rather not invite folks from other Dog cubits if you don't mind. I have a dog cubit of my own I have been working on, and there is a service dog forum in it. I want to have some articles ready to publish etc... I have some members and so forth, but I recently took it down because I want to do a "re-launch" when I have some videos ready etc. An example - a woman had an ill rescue Chihuahua mix that she rescued. She was playing throw the tennis ball for exercise therapy for it in her livingroom. The dog did not want to give the ball up. She had only had the dog a couple weeks or so, and it was a bit fearful still. He told her to grab the dog when it came up to her, and pinch it's lips against it's teeth until it dropped the ball. That's 30 year old thinking. I wrote to her privately, told her to get two or three balls. When the dog comes back, throw the next ball. When the dog was reliably dropping the ball, start to say "drop it!" in a happy tone, right before she could tell the dog was going to drop the ball. Then, start hesitating a bit before throwing the second ball, give the command and see if she would drop the ball on command. When she would, gradually work away from having more than one ball. She wrote that the two ball trick worked right away, and within 10 days the dog was happily coming and dropping the ball in her lap. No violence needed. The old methods can work -- but they can also create other problems. A lot of the bullying, dominance, pack leader stuff is based on outdated "wolf pack" stuff that is now being proven wrong. Dogs are not wolves any more than humans are not gorillas. And, the scientists that did those original studies have now come out and said that they are wrong. So.... newer dog trainers are showing that operant conditioning works really, really well... and that is what I am using with Josie. First dog I have used that with. When nothing goes right, turn left. |
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| I'd rather just hear Josie's story & then move on, considering Josie a member of the Cubit just like everyone else's animal friends. Getting into training can be so contentious & acrimonious... as Juli's experience shows. It's like raising kids, & everyone has their opinion about the 'right' way to do it. Some people worship that Cesar guy, & I think he's an idiot. But different kinds of dogs need different kind of training measures, a hard dominant aggressive shepherd is a very different animal to train than a soft beta-type lab. An adult dog that has aggression towards humans is different than a pup that has been properly socialized. A dog expected to be a pet is different from a dog required to track & hold a suspect. The degree of reliability required differs from dog to dog, job to job, situation to situation. I think it's great that Juli is putting together a Cubit where folks can go & learn her style. And there are probably things to learn from Lance as well. As well as Cesar. Animal training is an extremely individual thing. And ultimately I've found the best trainers can't really tell you how they get the results they get... because the human/animal exchange is so dynamic. I have little confidence in any enterprise or business or investment that promises dividends only after the death of the stockholders. |
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| Exactly, Jay. I'd rather start non-confrontational and work my way up....if needed. As many ways to train a dog as there are dogs and trainers. Just sat down to download this weeks podcasts, then going to try to get a few things done today. One thing we have not discussed, or I missed it is the Mosque near Ground Zero. I am not sure what to think about that. I did see that it is typical of them to build one on the sight of .... how was it put..... like military wins? So, are they trying to rub our nose in it? I understand they have the "right" to build - and they probably will - but?? edited to try to clarify - by "typical of them" I was speaking of some Muslim leaders, both political and religious, but not speaking of all the people who follow the Muslim religion. I should not have mentioned it, as it was just something I heard, briefly, on a news program, and only heard part of it... so I don't have fact to follow up what I said. When nothing goes right, turn left. |
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| Yes, a good trainer has a lot of alternatives in her handbag. LOL For example, I did the same 2 ball trick w/my pit--to increase her drive more than to get her to drop a ball--and she's such a piggy that she put both balls in her mouth. Fine, I get another ball. 3 balls won't fit in her mouth (though she tried) so she just quit. Gave me a look like "I'm just not that into balls."  Them? It seems unwise to lump every Muslin into one category. Sort of the same mind that makes us all infidels, IMHO.  I have little confidence in any enterprise or business or investment that promises dividends only after the death of the stockholders. |
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| Ha! I like Cesar, but I certainly don't "worship" him. In his defense, he, at least, is willing to admit that his methods aren't the only way; he did a show that focused on other people's successful training techniques. As you say, Jay, different dogs for different purposes take different training. I'm really surprised that Lance was so defensive; guess Juli will need to find a different training technique to use on him! Confidence is that feeling you have right before you do something really stupid. |
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| Sorry, Jay, I wasn't really speaking of all Muslims, just the group that wants to build that particular building. When nothing goes right, turn left. |
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| Shall we start a Ground Zero thread? I'll try to find a clipping that gives a concise idea of the issues. In the end, only kindness matters. Art and Artists & The Reading Room http://cubits.org/thereadingroom/ |
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woofie wrote: I'm really surprised that Lance was so defensive; guess Juli will need to find a different training technique to use on him! Yeah, fear biters are a whole 'nother critter to deal with. Ah, I see, Juli. It's good to be specific when discussing such a volatile topic. There's been a very interesting series of editorials representing all sides in the Wall Street Journal. My favorite so far has been from a Reformed Muslim (like Reformed Jew) who said when a muslim group says they're moderate, we should ask where will the women be sitting in the mosque? How many women will be on the governing board? Will Christian & Jewish groups have access to using the facility in the way that many Christian & Jewish groups have made their spaces available to Muslim groups for worship? Oh-hoo-hoo! Now that gets right to the root of it, doesn't it?  I have little confidence in any enterprise or business or investment that promises dividends only after the death of the stockholders. |
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sheryl wrote:Shall we start a Ground Zero thread? I'll try to find a clipping that gives a concise idea of the issues. Good Idea! I have little confidence in any enterprise or business or investment that promises dividends only after the death of the stockholders. |
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| Hooo, now those are some really good questions to ask! You sure don't hear the talking heads on TV mentioning those issues! Ya, separate thread sounds like a good idea! Confidence is that feeling you have right before you do something really stupid. |
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We're off to Wittington to explore the possibilities... catch y'all later! I have little confidence in any enterprise or business or investment that promises dividends only after the death of the stockholders. |
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| Come talk about it over here - http://cubits.org/Atheists/thread/view/33001/ . I did put a request for no generalisations up - that was not pointed at you Jules, I think this might be a difficult subject *not* to generalise about. In the end, only kindness matters. Art and Artists & The Reading Room http://cubits.org/thereadingroom/ |
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| I certainly hope I did not offend anyone. I did put a little footnote to my post above.... I should not have mentioned the Mosque - because I don't know a great deal about it all. It bothers me though, because it is one more example where Religion seems to cause so much distress for people. So many things have been done to people in the name of Religion. Genital mutilation, wars, genocide, mass killings, so many things .... all because a given "people" think that their way is "THE" way. But, then, as a non believer, I guess I think my way is the way also. But, when you see evidence of evolution, how can a thinking, reasoning Human believe in Creation in 6 days? Sorry, I don't get it. And, I grew up in a religious vacuum so I don't have enough knowledge to understand it anyway. But then again, I get my mind in a boggle when I try to figure out where the material that made up the galaxies came from. So there you have it. part one of puppy search. First was doing a year or so research into what a service dog could do for a person. What are my physical weaknesses and could a dog help with that. I knew I could teach a dog to pick things up - I did that with all my dogs in obedience. So I joined some Service dog forums, and started searching out places that train dogs in Ohio. I found out would not be able to get a traditional "program" service dog. One, I didn't have $20,000 - $30,000 laying around to pay for one. Two, I don't have a fenced in yard. Three, I have another dog, and a cat, and most do not want you to have any other animals. And, last, they did not consider me disabled enough to be put on a priority list, which meant my wait would probably be at least 10 years. If you are in a wheelchair, you wait is shorter, as it should be, but still can be 7 years. Then I found a Yahoo forum on clicker training your own service dog. I looked into Ohio law, and found that I could do it here in Ohio with the proper insurance. So I started reading up on training service dogs in what they could do. I contacted service dog organizations in Ohio to see if they had trainers that would help owner trainers, or knew of any trainers outside their organization that worked with owner trainers... and the ones that would even talk to me gave me the cold shoulder. Some were outright rude. In hindsight, if you're charging $20,000 or $30,000 for a dog, why would you be willing to help someone train their own. Through the clicker training forum on Yahoo I got some wonderful help from a woman in Vancouver has many videos on YouTube that were very helpful and encouraging. My other dog was 10, but I re-read what books I had on Clicker - which I had read about but never tried, bought some new ones, and practiced on poor old Pebbles. I had never trained her to do much, as she gets terribly car sick, so could never show her or take her to parks or anything. So the old dog learned a few tricks and I learned a bit about Clicker training. She already knew how to sit, down, stay, stand - but I taught her hand signals - odd ones that I knew she would not associate with the command. I figured at the least, I would get a dog, try teaching it, and if I failed in getting a dog for "public access" (that could go everywhere with me as a "legal" service dog, it could at least help me here at home. Next was figuring out what type of dog I would need. When I was young we had Dobermans. They were the first dogs I worked with in obedience. They learned -- but they aren't easy. And, they don't live that long. All my adult life, I have had Border Collies, or Australian Shepherds. With those dogs, especially BCs, there's a joke in the obedience world that you hand the dog the rulebook and when they're done reading it you go to a show. However, the problem with that intelligence, and drive, can come some strange... how to put it... behaviors. BCs are known to develop weird phobias, afraid of reflections, noises, a variety of things. My last BC had such a drive to succeed that if she made a mistake, she knew it -- and she fell apart. She also had a glass "thing" even if I was on the other side of glass from her she would throw herself at it gnashing teeth etc... but was otherwise a mild mannered, well behaved, non-threatening dog. But she HATED glass. When you have a service dog, the dog needs to have a special personality. They need to be outgoing, friendly dogs. Not aggressive. They need to obey commands -- every time -- but here is the kicker. They need to have enough confidence to NOT obey. They need to think on their own. They need to develop judgement. To know when your having some sort of medical problem, you might need them to break a down stay and get the phone or get help. You need a dog that is not afraid of anything - but not so bold to be overly confident because those dogs can become aggressive/ hard to handle. You want a dog who will not flinch if a toddler breaks free from Mom in a grocery and comes flying up to them SCREAMING "Doggie!!! Doggie!!!" which has happened to Josie more than once... and grab them in a big bear hug..... and yet be sensitive enough to sound to hear a beeper on a phone go off if you fell asleep to let you know it's time to take the next dose of medication. So I wanted the intelligence, quick mind, and drive of a BC but I needed a little larger dog, and hopefully with a little more stability. I also needed a dog with enough coat not to freeze in the winter when it is 10 degrees but with out so much hair I have a problem keeping up with brushing. I started watching all the Border Collie rescue sites in the eastern part of the country. Also Petfinder. And I had a couple of veterinarians looking for me, as well as several of my old training and show friends. I saw a couple of good prospects on Border Collie rescue sites. Where someone's female Border Collie had been caught let's say out of wedlock. They were often guessing at the resulting pups father's breed. One group of puppies had to be born by cesarean and they were pretty sure were sired by the neighbors Newfoundland. Well this was a possibility,certainly large enough!, but I wouldn't have been able to deal with the hair coat. Finally a couple young pups showed up that looked to be Lab and Border Collie crosses and I called about them. Then I found out there was no way a rescue was going to adopt out any dog to a home in the country that did not have "proper fencing." It didn't matter that I've had dogs here for 30 years and I've never had one get away, or that I have forty years experience training, or that I plan to make this a working dog with a real job that would be with me every day... I had no fence. Then, a dog showed up on Petfinder that was a blue merle, "young"... they knew the parents. She had been through their system before, but the owner was moving and could not keep the dog so she was back in the system. Mom had been a Doberman, Dad an Aussie. Adopted out a 4 months, turned back in at 19 months. She had been in a prison program as a puppy, but was now a little on the wild side. Lovely dog, coat short like a Dobie, but color of an Aussie. Short tail, long ears, blue eyes. Size of Dobie. They had her back in the prison program. I went to see her, but they were having problems that day, and had a lock down in prison and I could not see her. It was a couple hours drive, so I was pretty disappointed. I kept in contact with the trainer. They were having problems with her pulling on leash. One thing I cannot take is pulling. My old dog is a "natural freight train" and it KILLS my pain in my shoulders. They wanted me to have her so much. They kept her for an additional 10 week advanced class. I finally got to go see her. I could tell right away she was not going to be a service dog. She was far to flighty. She startled to easy. I went over in more detail what I was looking for with the prison trainer. He is a police officer. He gave me two other prisons to contact. I went to both those prisons and met with both of those trainers. I continued to search petfinder, as well as my local humane society etc. One thing I was not going to give in on was I knew I had to know that one parent HAD to be a BC or an Aussie. I had to have that intelligence to work with. My vet called me about a litter of full blooded BC pups his sister had on the ground - they were supposed to be larger pups, so I went to see them. One parent was short coated... so I had a 50/50 chance of getting a short coated pup (approx) but even full blooded, a lot of BCs don't have that full of a coat. I did go to see them, but I just didn't click with the parents. I don't know why. And, they were $1500 which is not that much for good bloodlines, but ..... A couple months later, a woman from a Humane Society called me and said they had a litter of pups at the prison I should see. They were going up on petfinder that day, and she would let me take my pick, and if they needed extra training, they would be glad to keep the one I picked longer for me. They had been at the prison from 8 weeks till 5 months and were now ready to go to homes. I looked online, and I liked the looks of all of them. All were red and white. Out of all 4, only one had not had Parvo. That was Josie, but it was not why I picked her. I didn't make a choice till I saw her. I was actually thinking of the male, Zuess. They had been taken from a hoarder of red and brown dogs. There were two males on the property that were not fixed, as the humane society had been working with this woman to fix her dogs... but had not been able to spay neuter all of them yet. One was a springer and one a Lab, or possibly a Lab x because they said he was huge. Looking at the pups, you know they were not half Springer, they had to be out of the Lab. They had gone in and taken all her dogs on New Year's Eve. They found Josie's litter outside, with Mom chained up, and pups in some straw bales. 4 live, several dead. Dad was running loose, although the property had field fence. They had ran Dad and Mom through the prison training program and said they both were great temperment dogs, learned quick, easy going. Dad had been adopted, but I did get to see Mom briefly, she was very sweet. The male pup had the worst case of parvo, and he just did not look thrifty. I was considering him, thinking he would grow the largest, and although he was friendly, he just didn't have that "spark".... there was another nice female, but she was almost all white, and my Mom didn't really like her. There was another nice female, but Josie - whose name was Zoey at the time... just had an extra strong zesty spunk. The trainer said.... oh, you don't want that one. She is into everything. She has to stick that nose of hers into anything new. Always going every which way. Look at Phoebe instead. She is so calm, never into things. My brain, though said AH HA!!!! I said, take the others away, and let me work with Zoey a little bit. He said, are you sure? She is so full of it!!! I said, yep! I put her on a long leash and took her outside. She would walk out to ten feet, get to the end and NOT PULL but look back at me, then take a look around. Perfect reaction. I backed up, she followed. I had a squeeky toy with me, which they were not allowed because the prisoners can file them down and make weapons out of them. I squeeked it. She turned that head, came right to it. I threw it a few feet. She sniffed it, picked it up, it squeeked, she spit it out, looked at it, picked it up, squeeked it about 15 times all while bringing it right back to me. I took it from her and she gave it to me, no problem. Great !!! a natural retriever who is not afraid to put strange objects in her mouth! Then I brought out a baggie with some different foods in. I knew they didn't give the puppies anything human, and not very good dog food. I had some tiny pieces of chicken breast, some cheese, some soft dog treats. She was very interested, but I could still get her attention away from it with the squeeky. This told me she was food oriented but not food CRAZY. And, she liked toys, and sounds. Perfect. Next, I took her back in side, sat down, and just watched her for a little while with the comings and goings inside the lobby. She mostly sat or laid down and watched the people. She didn't just fall asleep, didn't try chewing a chair leg. Quietly attentive. And, she didn't demand my attention. She was quite a composed little girl. Then I picked her up, and held her against me, not tight, but a little confining. She struggled big time, but eventually relaxed. I handled her ears, looked in her mouth, handled her feet, held her tail. No problem. Pinched one of her toes slightly. She looked at me like - why did you do that? but no other reaction. I had found my pup. But, I didn't have a crate yet, etc. So, I made arrangements to pick her up on Friday - I think I was there on a Tuesday. Boy - Was I in for it when I got her home...... Part two to follow...... Pup from Hell on the loose! Edited to add - Josie's Petfinder photo....  When nothing goes right, turn left. |
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did I offend everyone so much they left? When nothing goes right, turn left. |
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| LOL - no, Juli - it was just a bit to read for me, the ADD kid strikes again! In the end, only kindness matters. Art and Artists & The Reading Room http://cubits.org/thereadingroom/ |
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