Discussion of Colors, Forms or Varieties forum: Dahlia Color Chart Mistakes

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ImageMaryNZ
Feb 20, 2012 5:29 PM CST
Name: Mary St George
New Zealand

However, you say "The hue of pink lies between red, white and magenta colors. Nowhere in these definitions are colors that have yellow in them." My colour has yellow in it.
My photos are licensed CC BY (Attribution). More Dahlia photos here.
I also spend time in FB Dahlia groups at http://www.facebook.com/groups/363854624030/ and http://www.facebook.com/groups/dahlias/
Imageteddahlia
Feb 20, 2012 5:43 PM CST
Name: Ted
Oregon
We enjoy breeding new dahlias!
On the CMYK color system most of the the pinks on the dahlia color chart have yellow in them. Most have more yellow than your color.
We like to place a sign on our porch that says: We are in the garden. Really, we are always in the garden.
ImageMaryNZ
Feb 20, 2012 5:50 PM CST
Name: Mary St George
New Zealand

The trouble with trying to be "scientific" about colour, is that our colour perception shifts when all you add is white:
Thumb of 2012-02-20/MaryNZ/c519d4

Colours perceived as pink tend towards lilac. Colours perceived as apricot tend towards pink. Colours perceived as pale yellow can have enough red in them that we would call them orange in a darker hue.

My boxes have disappeared around each area of colour or gradient. I cannot make a 4-point gradient in this programme, just a 2-point one, so you have to do some imagining based on the top gradients which run left to right.
My photos are licensed CC BY (Attribution). More Dahlia photos here.
I also spend time in FB Dahlia groups at http://www.facebook.com/groups/363854624030/ and http://www.facebook.com/groups/dahlias/
[Last edited Feb 20, 2012 5:53 PM CST]
Quote | Post #832319 (3)
Imageteddahlia
Feb 21, 2012 11:20 AM CST
Name: Ted
Oregon
We enjoy breeding new dahlias!
Yes, that is interesting. Lots needs to be done on dahlia colors. It would be best to start from scratch and identify the common colors in dahlias and create color chips from those colors. Then they would be divided into color groups. All is easier said than done.

We like to place a sign on our porch that says: We are in the garden. Really, we are always in the garden.
Imageteddahlia
Feb 21, 2012 1:47 PM CST
Name: Ted
Oregon
We enjoy breeding new dahlias!
The dark red color chart does not go dark enough. I scanned this floret several years ago. It is from a variegated sport of Hollyhill Bewitched.
I then tried to match it to the dark red color chart. The two darkest colors are not nearly as dark as the chip I created for it.
Thumb of 2012-02-21/teddahlia/1531bd
We like to place a sign on our porch that says: We are in the garden. Really, we are always in the garden.
ImageMaryNZ
Feb 21, 2012 4:30 PM CST
Name: Mary St George
New Zealand

However, even "darker than DR-11 and DR-12" is good information. The chips and the petal colour all look brown on my screen - do they in real life?
My photos are licensed CC BY (Attribution). More Dahlia photos here.
I also spend time in FB Dahlia groups at http://www.facebook.com/groups/363854624030/ and http://www.facebook.com/groups/dahlias/
Imageteddahlia
Feb 21, 2012 5:33 PM CST
Name: Ted
Oregon
We enjoy breeding new dahlias!
The scans were done with my old Epson scanner. I got a new Canon scanner and this is the same chip DR12 scanned on it. Still a bit brown. Lots of variables here. Brand of scanner, differences in computer monitors. The main point is that the color chart needs to have darker chips since dahlia colors are in some cases darker. We have black dahlias too and there are no chips for them.
Thumb of 2012-02-21/teddahlia/148282
We like to place a sign on our porch that says: We are in the garden. Really, we are always in the garden.
[Last edited Feb 21, 2012 5:34 PM CST]
Quote | Post #832756 (7)
ImageMaryNZ
Feb 21, 2012 7:06 PM CST
Name: Mary St George
New Zealand

Sure, I was just curious about the actual colour. If all chips are scanned by the same equipment, it still gives great comparative information, even given monitor differences.
My photos are licensed CC BY (Attribution). More Dahlia photos here.
I also spend time in FB Dahlia groups at http://www.facebook.com/groups/363854624030/ and http://www.facebook.com/groups/dahlias/
Imageteddahlia
Mar 6, 2012 12:15 PM CST
Name: Ted
Oregon
We enjoy breeding new dahlias!
I have scanned all of the color charts with my Canoscan LIDE 600F scanner. I do not like the results as viewed on my computer monitor. In order to do a good job on this, each of the chips needs to be color corrected by holding the chip to the monitor and adjusting until correct. Quite a project. I did one chip so far and it is pictured in the Red flower thread. My wife will have to help do this as she has a better sense of color matching than me. May not have time to work on this project for awhile as it is time to take dahlia cuttings.
We like to place a sign on our porch that says: We are in the garden. Really, we are always in the garden.
ImageMaryNZ
Mar 6, 2012 1:37 PM CST
Name: Mary St George
New Zealand

It sounds like a very worthwhile project, Ted. However, there should be a consistent difference between the scanned chips, any petals you scan, and the monitor colour. They may be spot on on another monitor, and wrong with a different hue on a third, but consistently so on each. Maybe have a look at your scanned chips on a few other computers before you adjust them all? Make people visit with their laptops in hand!

To me, when you show a range of chips, petals, or both, that helps me to know the colour of an unfamilar flower as compared with one I know well - darker, yellower, or whatever. And that in itself is extremely helpful. I know the monitor can mislead me as to the exact shade.
My photos are licensed CC BY (Attribution). More Dahlia photos here.
I also spend time in FB Dahlia groups at http://www.facebook.com/groups/363854624030/ and http://www.facebook.com/groups/dahlias/
ImageMaryNZ
Mar 6, 2012 1:39 PM CST
Name: Mary St George
New Zealand

And all the best with the Dahlia cuttings! I hope you have a great season Smiling
My photos are licensed CC BY (Attribution). More Dahlia photos here.
I also spend time in FB Dahlia groups at http://www.facebook.com/groups/363854624030/ and http://www.facebook.com/groups/dahlias/
Imageteddahlia
Mar 7, 2012 5:28 PM CST
Name: Ted
Oregon
We enjoy breeding new dahlias!
Maybe I can work on color chart scanning a little bit at a time. I may take a look at the classification guide and identify some of the common colors. I bet there are numerous color chips that have never been used. I put about 50 tuber/pot tubers under the lights today to sprout. More tomorrow.
We like to place a sign on our porch that says: We are in the garden. Really, we are always in the garden.
Imageteddahlia
Mar 16, 2012 10:17 AM CST
Name: Ted
Oregon
We enjoy breeding new dahlias!
I have posted the initial scans of the American Dahlia Society color charts to the Hollyhill Dahlias website. http://www.hollyhilldahlias.com/
I decided not to adjust them initially as the scanner is theoretically set up to copy colors accurately. I suppose that scanners are designed to copy a wide range of items and that the high level of the printing pigments on the color charts may be a bit out of the ordinary. My perception is that the scans are generally too light as compared to the actual chips. As I have said before, 99% of dahlia people do not have the color charts. Even if these scans are not perfect, they are better than nothing and we can probably improve the accuracy with some feed back from users. I may post some pictures of some dahlias and include in the frame the color chip as designated by the ADS Classification guide. That would be interesting. It may well be that a better "retail" version of the color guide would be a set of pictures of dahlias that are supposedly the color of a specific chip. Then if someone wanted to know what color Red 24 is, they would access a picture of some Red 24 flowers. The inaccurate rendering of the actual chips on different monitors would probably not be as obvious when the flower is there to express the color.


We like to place a sign on our porch that says: We are in the garden. Really, we are always in the garden.
Imagehonnat
Mar 16, 2012 9:27 PM CST
St. Paul, MN
Thanks Ted! That's a useful resource even if our screens may interpret some of the colors differently. I think I may bookmark that page and refer to it when buying next year. Small note: I noticed that your Purple 13-26 is actually 1-12. So you have 1-12 on there twice.

I think i made some incorrect assumptions at first with the chart numbers since I hadn't seen the actual chips. I just figured 1 was the lightest and each color was darker as the numbers went up.
I have to think there are some of those colors that really don't exist (yet) in dahlias. Some of those purples (7,8&9)look blue.

It would almost be helpful if the ADS handbook had those chip numbers in the 2nd half of the book. Then, you could find the chip color you like, and quickly look through all the (i.e.) B Puple Semi Cactus - and find the color you like.
Imageteddahlia
Mar 17, 2012 9:29 AM CST
Name: Ted
Oregon
We enjoy breeding new dahlias!
I fixed Purple 2 chips. The classification book is focused on categorizing dahlia varieties into specific numeric classes for dahlia shows. As you say it could be useful for non show purposes too. I believe that people like lists of things. The ADS should make sure the classification books are posted to the website each year. I believe the one on the site is several years old. It would be nice for example if you could either query a dahlia database(classification guide) and find flowers in the color and size and form that you desire. The person who set up the classification database on the website in 2008 did a good job at the time. You can query by color or size and a list appears. However, as I say it is a list from the 2008 classification book and there are many newer varieties not in the database. Assuming that 100 new varieties are introduced each year(a low guess) there are 400 missing varieties. And most people are looking for the newer varieties, not the older ones.
We like to place a sign on our porch that says: We are in the garden. Really, we are always in the garden.
ImageMaryNZ
Mar 17, 2012 11:34 PM CST
Name: Mary St George
New Zealand

Interesting. US bronzes in particular are quite a different colour selection from bronzes in some other countries.
My photos are licensed CC BY (Attribution). More Dahlia photos here.
I also spend time in FB Dahlia groups at http://www.facebook.com/groups/363854624030/ and http://www.facebook.com/groups/dahlias/
Imageteddahlia
Mar 25, 2012 9:49 AM CST
Name: Ted
Oregon
We enjoy breeding new dahlias!
I hope that posting the color charts will be helpful to people. Yesterday, we attended a dahlia workshop about 4 hours away and car pooled in a minivan. Among the numerous conversations that arose in 8 hours of the drive was an interesting story about color charts. My contention has been of course that very few people own color charts and are not very like likely to buy them(the current price is $50.00).

The story goes that about 15 years ago these two senior judges were invited to an ADS trial garden to judge the blooms. The garden was located near a city hosting the National Show. When they arrived at the garden to judge they asked to borrow a color chart to classify the blooms for color. They were told that no one in their society owned a color chart. This trial garden had been in operation for several years and had no color chart. They said that it was easy to color class dahlias as everybody knew the proper colors , "you know the red ones are red and the yellow ones are yellow." . This was in the days when the color chart being used was the very expensive RHS chart and they were too cheap to buy one.

We like to place a sign on our porch that says: We are in the garden. Really, we are always in the garden.
Imagetgarland
Apr 2, 2012 8:00 AM CST
Name: Tim Garland
Boise, Idaho
Ted I burned a copy of the color chart and printed it up on photo paper. It looks pretty true to what you have posted. I work at Hewlett Packard, so I have access to really nice printers. I promise I won't go into business selling copies.
Imageteddahlia
Apr 2, 2012 9:24 AM CST
Name: Ted
Oregon
We enjoy breeding new dahlias!
Glad to hear of your success. Hope they come in handy and eventually you may buy the actual set for the $50.00 that they charge now. I worked briefly at a print shop many years ago and appreciate good printing when I see it. They did a very good job of printing it. However, we do everything on computers these days and the best color chart would be a list of colors listed by their RGB numbers. In the future, we should scan(or take a good digital picture) of a petal from the flower, determine the color code by using Photoshop or other program and find the closest listed RGB color in the ADS digital chart. ADS should set up a digital chart for this purpose. This would remove much of the "human element" in the process that makes it very inaccurate. Currently, there is little consistency in the determination of dahlia colors on the same flower when done by several people. The variability should be from flower to flower, not from person to person. Computer sampling of colors is the way to go.
We like to place a sign on our porch that says: We are in the garden. Really, we are always in the garden.
ImageMaryNZ
Apr 2, 2012 2:33 PM CST
Name: Mary St George
New Zealand

Ted, I'm still puzzled about how we can get really accurate about the colour of a flower, when it will be different depending on the weather and the amount of shade. Wouldn't we need to have a colour ranger per cultivar?
My photos are licensed CC BY (Attribution). More Dahlia photos here.
I also spend time in FB Dahlia groups at http://www.facebook.com/groups/363854624030/ and http://www.facebook.com/groups/dahlias/

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