Discussion of Colors, Forms or Varieties forum: Laciniated- from the sublime to uninspiring

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ImageCCvacation
Oct 1, 2014 10:08 PM CST
Name: CC
PA
This is the perfect spot to ruminate on the many varieties of lascinated dahlias.

Which varieties are the best in your garden, which ones will you be kicking out of the beds next season?

The perfect place, too, to answer frustrating questions...
What exactly IS considered a lascinated bloom? Why, oh why, does my lascinated bloom look like a semi-cactus (or ID) with no frills? And why doesn't it keep in a vase well? And why do 'serious' hybridizers shun them?

But first, what are your favorites, and what pushes them to the top of your list?
CC
portia
Oct 2, 2014 7:17 AM CST
Southern PA, Brandywine
I only have two I think, one of which has not bloomed, late planted. But the one I do have, I really love.

It's Pinelands Princess. I read that it was a very prolific bloomer, not too tall, and both of those are true. It lasts for days in the vase, and I love how it opens very pink and matures to almost white with just pink edging. The foliage is also attractive, soft and bright green with pronounced edging. It also works fantastic in bouquets with the coloring and it's not too large.

I wasn't sure how I would feel about the lascinated as sometimes pictures don't do them justice but I was pleasantly surprised with this one. My other one which is still struggling to bloom is Myrtle's Folly.

younger bloom:
Thumb of 2014-10-02/portia/66c207

matured bloom:
Thumb of 2014-10-02/portia/af49fb
ImageDarcyD
Oct 2, 2014 8:33 AM CST
Name: Darcy D
Green Oaks, Illinois
A post after my own heart Lovey dubby

Why do "serious' hybridizers shun them? Is it because the centers are rarely open? They don't show well, because judges don't like "crazy" looking blooms? I don't know. But, that seedling of Mac's won "best overall bloom" of the entire show at the Central States show. Maybe just because it was such an unusual color for a lacinated bloom?

I had
Dr. John Keiser:
Thumb of 2014-10-02/DarcyD/5b7f5a

Just Married:
Thumb of 2014-10-02/DarcyD/ea27a4

Mingus Mike B:
Thumb of 2014-10-02/DarcyD/ad34c2

Noid...I still think it looks like Pinelands Princess when I search web:
Thumb of 2014-10-02/DarcyD/64851a

Elizabeth Mellinger (loved this & can't believe I didn't take a pic!), Myrtles Folly, Papa's Benji (I broke early & haven't seen it...not sure if it made it), Nenekazi (in front & hasn't bloomed), Show N Tell, Marvelous Mans (very...spiky looking foliage & amazing color), Citron De Cap (got to see one bloom before the storm took it out). Nicky K (not full enough for me, and faded until fall)

These were all my favorites in the garden.

I would like to try:

Lakeview Curly: http://www.clearviewdahlias.com/p/?pid=26

Lakeview Gertie: http://www.clearviewdahlias.com/p/?pid=89

Hannah Baker: http://www.cgdahlias.com/hannah_baker.html

Jax: http://parksdahlias.com/pk/jax.jpg

Millenium: http://parksdahlias.com/pk/millenium.jpg

Bloomquist Glow, well really I'd try any.

[Last edited Oct 2, 2014 8:35 AM CST]
Quote | Post #1089928 (3)
Imageteddahlia
Oct 2, 2014 9:36 AM CST
Name: Ted
Oregon
We enjoy breeding new dahlias!
We like laciniated dahlias but the split tips trait is very powerful and a perfectly nice flower otherwise with slight split tips will not do well in the shows. By the way the trait seems to be "additive" meaning that as you add more LC genes the more the petals split. I have seen seedlings that split all the way to the center.
If you say that show people do not like laciniated dahlias remember when Lois V. was the highest seller($40.00?) at the Federation tuber auction last year. They love them and I believe the best new one is Mingus Mikie B. Yes, it needs to be shaded or cloudy weather but the colors and the laciniations are the best. It won best LC at a show this year. Remember it was the one that embarrassed me as a dahlia judge. I gave it the highest score in the trial garden and then the next day the sun came out and the judge who I told about it thought I was nuts. That first day it was so beautiful that crowds of visitors to the gardens came over to see it. And the photographers were all over it. The next day everybody just walked by it like it was nothing.
We like to place a sign on our porch that says: We are in the garden. Really, we are always in the garden.
ImageCCvacation
Oct 2, 2014 9:39 AM CST
Name: CC
PA
DarcyD wrote:Why do "serious' hybridizers shun them?


My understanding is because most the seedlings start to get split tips... Both Ted and Cory Wynne have talked about this in the past, citing this as the reason that lascinated forms were not welcome in their dahlia beds.

Doesn't make sense to me totally, as there can only be two parents per seedling, but that I what I've been told AND have seen the truth of it first hand in a hybridizer's seedling patch. Bob R. grows mostly cactus and balls, with only a few lascinated ones, but his creation Windhaven Brûlée is the donor parent to many of his seedling... The colors are unmistakable, with the tell-tale notch in the petals. Some of his excellent semi-cactus seedlings are plagued or gifted (depending how you see it) with notched petals, that can go quite deep depending on the weather or some other variable.

Edit- cross-posted with Ted
CC
[Last edited Oct 2, 2014 9:42 AM CST]
Quote | Post #1089950 (5)
ImageDarcyD
Oct 2, 2014 9:50 AM CST
Name: Darcy D
Green Oaks, Illinois
I can understand the need to keep them out of the bed if you are breeding & do not want to introduce that trait at all.

But WHY don't judges like split tips? I personally (not as a show person) love split tip blooms (including Summer Rain & Sonic Bloom). I find the form interesting. Is it a bad mark when they have split tips when judging? Or, more a personal dislike? Maybe I should hybridize split tip/LC flowers & sell them to the general public rather than show people Hilarious! I seem to recall Ted mentioning someone is going to start concentrating on LC breeding. I want to follow them & buy from them, if I could only remember who it was. Big Yellow Grin

BTW...Mingus Mike B is absolutely fabulous. It doesn't fade too much here in the Midwest, and my bed is out in the open sun all day. I still like it after it dulls a bit, as it doesn't look streaky just a bit less vibrant.
[Last edited Oct 2, 2014 9:52 AM CST]
Quote | Post #1089953 (6)
Imageteddahlia
Oct 2, 2014 10:20 AM CST
Name: Ted
Oregon
We enjoy breeding new dahlias!
The Boleys are working on laciniated and so is AC Dahlias. We originated several back when we first started breeding. The most successful one has been Hollyhill Candystripe. The others were HH Miss Scarlet and HH Lemon Slice(probably lost now). All came from Nenekazi. And I forgot to mention good old 7-91 that is the A sized red laciniated flower that people ask about and was in the mass arrangement at the ADS National show. It looked as good as ever this year. I will bug Margaret to name it and maybe we will distribute it in some way. After all it has done well for 8 growing seasons now.
We like to place a sign on our porch that says: We are in the garden. Really, we are always in the garden.
mandolls
Oct 2, 2014 1:24 PM CST
Name: Geof
WI
One thing that confuses me is when is a dahlia officially a lacinated one?

If there are spit tips of any sort is it automatically a lacinated Dahlia?

Oops - I guess not - I have never thought of John Kaiser as a lacinated Dahlia, and I just checked with the ADS Classification. It is listed as an Informal Decorative.

Will John Kaiser not do well in shows, because it is an ID with sometimes lacinated tips?

Also - what is the difference between lacinated and filimbrated (?) ?
ImageBenny101
Oct 2, 2014 1:57 PM CST
Greenville MI - zone 5b
Here is the ADS definition of laciniated to possibly clear a little of the confusion .
Fimbriated and Laciniated dahlia are one and the same I believe , just depends on what part of the world you live in .


X501—X515 LACINIATED Dahlias: Ray florets are split at the tip with the number and depth of the splits varying according to the size of the ray floret. The portion of the ray floret with the splits should uniformly twist or curl whether involute or revolute. The less mature ray florets should possess splits but do not have to twist or curl. In the ideal laciniated dahlia, the majority of ray florets will be uniformly arranged with a split, twist, or curl that conveys an overall fringed or frilled effect. Ray florets, slightly involute or revolute, that split regardless of length and remain generally flat are a major fault. Ray florets with a shallow notch or cleft and possessing little twisting to the extreme portion should not be classified as laciniated. The ideal depth is three-quarters the diameter of the bloom and should never be greater than its diameter.
[Last edited Oct 2, 2014 2:48 PM CST]
Quote | Post #1090023 (9)
mandolls
Oct 2, 2014 3:02 PM CST
Name: Geof
WI
Thank you Benny - I looked for that and didnt find it.
ImageBenny101
Oct 2, 2014 3:37 PM CST
Greenville MI - zone 5b
No problem Geof , it was still in the background of my phone browser from looking it up the other day myself .

Here is a link to the ADS Classification descriptions for anyone curious. I wish there were corresponding diagrams to go with the text .

http://www.dahlia.org/guide/form.html
[Last edited Oct 2, 2014 3:39 PM CST]
Quote | Post #1090033 (11)
Imageteddahlia
Oct 2, 2014 4:25 PM CST
Name: Ted
Oregon
We enjoy breeding new dahlias!
The old term was fimbriated and they changed it to laciniated. It is a matter of degree and twisting. Just notches is not laciniated. Deep notches and twisting of the petals makes it laciniated. Just notches is just a show fault. Since there are no form definitions for cut flowers, notches may be a good thing if you think they look good.
We like to place a sign on our porch that says: We are in the garden. Really, we are always in the garden.
ImageCCvacation
Oct 2, 2014 4:27 PM CST
Name: CC
PA
So I've been spelling 'laciniated' wrong all this time? *Blush*
CC
ImageDarcyD
Oct 2, 2014 4:33 PM CST
Name: Darcy D
Green Oaks, Illinois
I wondered about the spelling. I've seen it 3 different ways & had no idea which was correct.
portia
Oct 2, 2014 5:50 PM CST
Southern PA, Brandywine
CCvacation wrote:So I've been spelling 'laciniated' wrong all this time? *Blush*


LOL, I hought it was laciniated from seeing it on sites, but I was like oh CC said Lascinated so that must be it!
Imagehonnat
Oct 2, 2014 6:19 PM CST
St. Paul, MN
The ADS book does not indicate that you can't have split tips on an informal decorative. It does say tips should be rounded on formals. Some judges will count ita fault anyway in IDs.
Splits show up more in hot weather so warm weather states may lobby to have a dahlia like Dr. John E Kaiser change classes. If it did you'd see less wins in the PNW as the splits would not be deep enough there.
[Last edited Oct 2, 2014 6:49 PM CST]
Quote | Post #1090064 (16)
ImageBenny101
Oct 2, 2014 6:22 PM CST
Greenville MI - zone 5b
For instance the random notched tips on this first year seedling do nothing to help it what so ever

Thumb of 2014-10-03/Benny101/aa108f
ImageCCvacation
Oct 2, 2014 8:03 PM CST
Name: CC
PA
1. to lascinate; charm unaliato, -a, adj. bewitched; smitten imaliat6re, tm. enchanter; sorcerer imaliatn'ce, */. enchantress; witch imaliatflra, f/. enchantment; charm ...

Definition of lacinate. ... lacinate has definitions from the field of botany. 1. [ adjective ] (botany) having edges irregularly and finely slashed ...

So for all those years of misspelling it, I've been speaking of a dahlia with bewitching charm. Not TOO far off...
CC
ImageIslander
Oct 2, 2014 8:56 PM CST
Name: Noni Morrison
Warren, Oregon
retired flower farmer
Cyril HIggo

Mel's Orange Marmelade

Kenora Macop B

Kaleidescope
Coconut Puff
Show N Tell
Maggie C
HH 6-1
HH Miss Scarlet (Apparently I don't have a picture of this one yet...)
HH Candystripe

HH Candystripe
AC Chicken Ranch
Kenora Macop B
Knee Deep
Myrtle's Folly

Thumb of 2014-10-03/Islander/347c3d
Thumb of 2014-10-03/Islander/aca4fe
Thumb of 2014-10-03/Islander/52fbba


Thumb of 2014-10-03/Islander/a46825
Thumb of 2014-10-03/Islander/b48675
Thumb of 2014-10-03/Islander/07fca3
Thumb of 2014-10-03/Islander/06c59a
Thumb of 2014-10-03/Islander/ae25fd
Thumb of 2014-10-03/Islander/c4e3a2
Salish Dahlias
ImageIslander
Oct 2, 2014 9:03 PM CST
Name: Noni Morrison
Warren, Oregon
retired flower farmer
Thumb of 2014-10-03/Islander/e52ad5 Knee Deep

Thumb of 2014-10-03/Islander/54b883 AC Chicken Ranch

Thumb of 2014-10-03/Islander/40f652 Myrtle's Folly
Salish Dahlias

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