Identification forum: Hoya compacta
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| LauraCarnosa asked about a statement I made on Hoya carnosa 'Compacta' on another thread http://cubits.org/Hoya/thread/view_post/812689/. I feel I have a lot of memories and opinions on these plants that would be better addressed in a separate post, so here, humbly and with an open mind, I will post what I think. Laura, I'm not completely sure of the history of the plants we call "compacta", but I always understood they came from Ed Hummel (in California) and his radiation treatments of various plants. He also zapped a lot of Euphorbia milli hybrids and Crassula ovata (Jade Plant). He is known in the Hoya sphere for the hybrid Hoyas 'Minibelle' and 'Sheperdell', the first one named after his wife. I would like to know if these are polyploids of carnosa or some other easily explained mutation. This is my suspicion; that Hummel coaxed the contorted forms out of regular forms of H. carnosa, perhaps with low-level radiation. This technique was very popular in the 50's and 60's among plant breeders. Evidence to support the simple mutation theory is found in the fact that both 'Krinkles 8' and 'Compacta' revert to normal carnosa with some regularity (and 'Compacta reverts to 'Krinkles 8'). The variegated compact ones revert to their variegated flat leaved forms as well. Perhaps someone who has direct knowledge of how these plants came to exist will respond here. That is my hope. I know Cobia trademarked them, but I don't think he was the originator, as they were widely distributed as 'Hummel's Compacta' long before the trademark(s). I heard stories among nursery people that there was bad feeling between Hummel and Cobia when I was a kid working in nurseries in the mid-70's. I'm not sure if Mrs. B. can be trusted on this question, as she actually described the "compacta"s as a new species. I am not enough of a botanist to debate the fine points of the description, but as far as I am aware, the plant has not been found in habitat. Until an actual population is found, I feel confident in my opinion that the concept of this as a species ought to be thought of as theoretical. Further, even if a population is found, that it must be shown to have reproduction by means of seeds before considering it valid. Please excuse my mistake on the name in the other post. As for the plants themselves: I always called the plain one 'Compacta', or 'Hummel's Compacta'; it may have also been sold as 'Krinkle Kurl'. Current naming rules would probably prefer H. Hummel's 'Compact', but that determination would be up to the naming registrar. It reverts to 'Krinkles 8'. The one with the variegated edge has been called 'Regalis', 'Marginata', and 'Compacta Variegata' (and probably other names). It reverts occasionally to 'Krimson Queen'. I would propose that in light of the fact that it was once trademarked as 'Regalis', that that being Latin, it is unacceptable, the registrar might consider 'Hummel's Regal', or something to that effect. The one with the variegation of cream color in the center is the most mixed-up; it was trademarked 'Lura Lei' (which would be a perfectly good cv. name) and also sold as 'Mauna Loa', and 'Compacta Medio-picta'. It reverts to 'Krimson Princess'. If any body has a knowledge about, or a personal story involving these plants, please post them here. edited with a small addition |
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| Wow David, you are pretty darn smart! Too cool, and many thanks for this, as it must have taken awhile to compose. I have heard of Ed Hummell, but never compactas being his contribution. I learned something new today! Yay! I like the reference to "Mrs. B". *wink*  Not to be mistaken for RandyBoatwright's Missus, BTW!  "When you have only two pennies left in the world, buy a loaf of bread with one, and a lily with the other." - Chinese Proverb |
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| Wow, David, that's awesome!! I had no idea that compacta would revert to KQ, KP and Krinkle 8...this really bums me out!! So, tell me, please, my variegated compacta that has solid cream, pink, red and orangish coloured leaves is called what? Also, do you have any idea on how long it takes for these "compactas" to revert? I've seen some that are over a decade old with no signs of reverting, so I'm curious. Thanks so much for the interesting...and disappointing...information. BTW, Ms. Burton adamantly denies that compacta is a carnosa. Fondly, Patrick |
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| The reversions can be seen in large commercial greenhouses where they grow thousands of 'Compacta's; I saw this in Florida. Call your plants what you will. Nothing is official, as far as I know. I do not know who the registrar is, or if a registrar has been designated for the cultivars in the genus Hoya. I would like to see the Europeans take this on as is would side-step arguments between U.S. organizations. It is reasonable to argue that a mutation that changes the form of the leaves might change the form of the flowers as well. I have not read the description of H. compacta Burton. Can anyone send it to me? A species described from horticulture is not unreasonable, but in the case of the 'Compacta's they are obviously mutations; it is hard to imagine how the would survive and propagate in the natural environment. |
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| I'll see what I can find for you David, and post the link. "When you have only two pennies left in the world, buy a loaf of bread with one, and a lily with the other." - Chinese Proverb |
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| Thanks for that fascinating information Dave! I will second what Laura said about you being pretty darned smart and thanking you for composing all of it - much appreciated! Doug |
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| David, I am sincerely impressed with your knowlege and I so hope issues like this find their way to resolve because so many of us need to know. None of us would ever intentionally want to continue perpetrating mistakes! Laura, I love your sense of humor. Actually I do call my wife "Missus B" quite often. Actually Mrs. B so no mistaken identity there! |
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| Thanks everyone for reading, and thanks for the kind comments. I'm still looking for help from someone who might have the issue of the 'Hoyan' with the description, from 1990 # 12:2 I would also like to know where the holotype went; I would assume that will be in the describing article. An aside: can you imagine trying to press a sample of 'Compacta'? Anyone with other information or memories, please post here. Randy, give my regards to Missus B, and assure her I meant the other one... |
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| I cannot imagine trying to press compacta for the holotype, that would really be b!tch! I imagine it would rot before it dried properly... Pressing compacta, now that's the second funniest thing I've read here today... I'm sure Mrs.B, (not Randy's) would provide you with such if you asked her... "When you have only two pennies left in the world, buy a loaf of bread with one, and a lily with the other." - Chinese Proverb |
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| Dorothy has them...I'll call her and ask her to post.... I have often wondered why CMB would never addresses any of our questions thru someone on the cubit or in her issues of vitriol, PSThe Hoyan. Dave...you gave a good description of the issue with good facts and no diatribes! I salute you!!!! I could never understand how compacta ever could be explained away as a species hoya!!!!! sure looks like a sport/mutation. Seems like it can be stable for a very long time (forever?) or revert quickly.I would reckon that the genetic structure of those sports is fragile at best and something must contribute to the shorter/long life to trigger a reversion. Off to call Dorothy....  Leap. The net will appear. |
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| Thanks for asking the Greens for the information, Carol. Thank you for your comments. Scientific questions should be discussed in a civil way in a public forum. Learned people can disagree without being disagreeable. |
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| Very wise observation! |
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| Hello, I am new on the forum,hope everyone is well. I would like to say, I've never seen so many people in one place that are dedicated to correctly naming the Hoya's which seems to be quit a difficult task.I found that out when i tried to get a correct id on one of my plants.It's an EA plant labeled H.'bilobata/tsangii'  I also have a H.'compacta' regalis i guess is the correct name. I also have both Hoya k/p & k/q so i hope my rope plant (that's so much simpler) doesn't change or revert back to the other.Thank you all for all the time that's put into passing along correct information!!  I have learned a lot since i started read what all of you have to say and again thanks again for sharing all the information on these plants.You all give others a chance to be able to collect these plant and have healthy plants through the sharing of information  have a lovely day, Jo I asked for a flower and he gave me a garden,then grand-kids to work in it with me!!!! |
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Jelinda...well,it's almost the correct name: it should be H. compacta Regalis or 'Regalis'.  Leap. The net will appear. |
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| Facinating thread David, great information, thank you - keep it up! |
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Lovely compacta, Jo. I don't have a variegated one....  "When you have only two pennies left in the world, buy a loaf of bread with one, and a lily with the other." - Chinese Proverb |
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| Welcome, Jo. This is a great cubit of greater people. I have the variegated "rope" you refer to and I love it. I don't have the non-variegated because I managed to kill it with kindness. Mine has not reverted but I still would like it if it did. I just have to be very careful because those dreaded mealies have so many places to hide in the tucks and folds. Good growing to you! |
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| With H.compacta or whatever it is...dunking the whole plant in a bucket of water with a tiny bit of dish soap is a good idea...make sure the leaves and vines get thoroughly drenched. Suffocates the mealies and if there are mealies in the soil,they should be zapped too. Leap. The net will appear. |
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| Thanks, Carol. I knew about the dishsoap for the foilage but wasn't aware it would zap 'em in the soil!! |
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| Hello all, The name Hummel struck a familiar sound with me.I have now realized it's because of my Jade 'Hummels sunset'.So is this another plant that was zapped by him,i did read where you said he experimented on Hoya's and Jade's. Is that where this particularly colorful jade plant come from?? It turns red like no other jade plant i have & it's one that someone gave me a rooting of having no idea anything other than it was a jade.I rooted it last summer,it has started getting new limbs and turning red. Have a lovely day   I asked for a flower and he gave me a garden,then grand-kids to work in it with me!!!! |
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