Article: ID'ing iris from Photo's: Should unregistered iris be shared for any other reasons than as a potential par

 
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ID'ing iris from Photo's
By Denise Stewart AKA Dee on May 7, 2010

To help in understanding why judges do not want to ID from a photo

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ImagePaul2032
Aug 29, 2011 2:46 PM CST
Name: Paul Smith
Pleasant Grove Utah
Grandchildren are my greatest joy.
I have given seedlings away and then wondered if they might cause problems in the future if someone decides they want to know the name. Should unregistered iris be shared for any other reasons than as a potential parent? Confused
Paul Smith Pleasant Grove, Utah
ImageMitchF
Aug 29, 2011 3:32 PM CST
Name: Mitch Fitzgerald
Oklahoma
sure - most good gardeners have Noids... and love some of them. Sure we wish we knew the names but often we know it can never be.
Mitch Fitzgerald
ImagePollyK
Aug 29, 2011 7:31 PM CST
Name: Polly Kinsman
Hannibal, NY

Paul, I hope you don't mind, but I think this subject deserves it's own thread.

I think there is absolutely no reason not to share unregistered iris. The more pretties in our garden the better. Of course whoever we share with must be aware it's an unregistered seedling.

As far as putting more irises out there with no registration, there are so many out there now that it won't make any difference.

A lot of people don't keep the names of their irises, and that's their right. I surely love some of my NOIDS as much as the registered ones.

I'd love to hear other comments.
ImagePaul2032
Aug 29, 2011 7:52 PM CST
Name: Paul Smith
Pleasant Grove Utah
Grandchildren are my greatest joy.
I agree this deserves discussion. This spring I had more seedlings than I could handle so I gave some to several friends in the UIS, some newer fanciers. I'm hoping that in two or three years some do not show up at a show. with an excited new exhibitor hoping someone can ID it so it can be entered or on DG with a plea for ID. One year we had a great potential member show up at a show with 20+ noids. We did our best to explain that only named varieties could be entered but we never saw him again. Maybe we should give a local award for best noid. I could come down on both sides of this.
Paul Smith Pleasant Grove, Utah
ImagePollyK
Aug 29, 2011 7:57 PM CST
Name: Polly Kinsman
Hannibal, NY

I could too, but realizing there are so many NOIDS out there now, I don't see where adding a few more beauties to the fray will hurt.

And it's been my experience on DG that most people that continuously ask for IDs are not going to keep track of irises anyway.

I think an award at the local show for the best NOID might be a great idea.
Imageirisloverdee
Aug 29, 2011 8:53 PM CST
Name: Dee Stewart
Willamette Valley OR
Snowpeak Iris
Ok, for a grower and hybridizer I AM 100% against giving away unnamed seedlings or seedlings that you were going to put on the compost pile. Why? we have seen where the mart stores take any old iris and put a name to it. Many new iris people do the same thing. I know for a fact that most if not all the growers in Oregon put them all in the compost pile if they are not using them.

You would be surprised the number of people that have gotten iris with NOID and looked and said oh that looks like for example Stepped Out so this NOID is now Stepped Out and he/she gives/sells/trades it as that...over and over. You see this on Ebay all the time.

We do our best never to allow a seedling off the property because it can cause a variety to get so screwed up and Look at Ola Kala an old Sass iris, it is so messed up that I am having the grandson of Sass come and make sure all my Sass are correct as he has his grand dads photo's and notes.

Please people rethink what you might be doing

D

Do not kill me.
Denise Stewart
541-259-2343
Snowpeak http://snowpeakiris.com

ImagePaul2032
Aug 29, 2011 9:09 PM CST
Name: Paul Smith
Pleasant Grove Utah
Grandchildren are my greatest joy.
Well said..you of course are right and I appreciate your saying it. Great advice. You have helped me be clearer in my mind about this. Thanks for the reality check!
Paul Smith Pleasant Grove, Utah
[Last edited Aug 29, 2011 4:14 PM CST]
Quote | Post #750111 (7)
Imageirisloverdee
Aug 29, 2011 9:45 PM CST
Name: Dee Stewart
Willamette Valley OR
Snowpeak Iris
Truthfully it would be wonderful if we could give away our unwanted seedlings but in the real world there are just too many people that put names to them.

A very respected floral designer and grower of many flowers in town and competes all over the valley, comes to my place and see's an iris similar to one of her's she does not really know the name of and goes home puts a name on it and enters as such. I finally after many times telling her that you can not do this. She entered an iris with a name and the beard was so wrong and told the committee so, they truly did not believe me early on and so I went home got the correct one complete with the AIS R&I on it and showed them. Needless to say her iris was pulled from the competition.

D
Denise Stewart
541-259-2343
Snowpeak http://snowpeakiris.com

ImagePaul2032
Aug 29, 2011 10:31 PM CST
Name: Paul Smith
Pleasant Grove Utah
Grandchildren are my greatest joy.
This problem also continues because it is very hard for judges to be aware of what every variety should look like. Some don't try. Others have strong opinions but limited knowledge. On the other hand they are volunteers. I loved your example of the lady exhibitor.
Paul Smith Pleasant Grove, Utah
ImagePaul2032
Aug 30, 2011 12:23 AM CST
Name: Paul Smith
Pleasant Grove Utah
Grandchildren are my greatest joy.
Dee....your previous 2 comments represent the reason I love cubits, the opportunity for me to relearn what I should have known. If the iris world is flooded with 1000's of seedlings why would a hybridizer bother to try to make small but real advancements in their breeding program? How could we define progress? Everyone would be able to say that they have one just like another. Awards, tours, record keeping would be of no value. Quality iris would be of no more value than their near look alike sib. The selection process would mean nothing. I love' Brilliant Idea' but look forward to seeing 'Revision' bloom next spring as it is supposed to be a little better than BI. This selection process is so important to ever more beautiful and wonderful iris........... I've blabbered on long enough and had better go to sleep. Blinking
Paul Smith Pleasant Grove, Utah
Imageavmoran
Aug 30, 2011 6:06 AM CST
Name: Anita Moran
Pylesville, MD Zone 6B
I just got a c-mail about this
my response

Unlike Daylily people, Iris people do not want inferior iris in the market. I might send a seedling from a particular cross to another hybridizer who I know will destroy it after use but I and most others will not sell seedlings, ever. Those I compost year one are weak, grey, poor color intensity etc. etc. this is about 60% of iris seedlings I compost.

Year two I compost those that fail to thrive, show a severe fault, this is another 30%.
Year three is the toughest as these are thriving plants with few faults and this it is about color satuation, form, fertility, stalk, and strength of the plant or has not distinction compared with similar iris. I do not want 30 yellow dawarfs with red spots.

By year 4 I have the strongest best color, form, plants I can produce I wait until I see what they produce before they are introduced and have lined these out to grow to sufficient quantity to sale.


Thumb of 2011-08-30/avmoran/4730cb
Thumb of 2011-08-30/avmoran/d89a0b
Thumb of 2011-08-30/avmoran/2916b2

The above are all siblings, The two yellows with red spots were composted they were SDBs of which there are too many to count with similar color and marking which are indistinct, fading and only 2 buds per stalk. The one in the center is an MDB 5" tall with 4 buds great color and form it stayed


Thumb of 2011-08-30/avmoran/3579b5


This was one of the yellow and reds I did keep from another cross because it has 3 buds, brilliant color and increases like mad. Why would I want the two I composted to be grown anywhere else when I have much better seedlings that may eventually be introduced.

I hope you understand my reasoning

Anita
ImagePaul2032
Aug 30, 2011 6:19 AM CST
Name: Paul Smith
Pleasant Grove Utah
Grandchildren are my greatest joy.
Anita...thanks for your comments. It is clear that choosing a worthwhile seedling requires patience, self discipline, and a good eye. Its going to be interesting watching this thread. I hope there is further discussion.
Paul Smith Pleasant Grove, Utah
ImageMitchF
Aug 30, 2011 9:10 AM CST
Name: Mitch Fitzgerald
Oklahoma
on my side of things - there are millions of noids out there - most of us have them in the garden... I keep logs on all the new Iris I have here and will try my best to match blooms before I trade them back out again ( going to be hard to do but I am going to try) - all in all I dont know... part of me says you know why have more noids out there... and part of me says there are too many noids - already it cannot hurt. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen gardens with labels on an Iris only to find they bought it at a big box store and there is no way to know the ID.... very frustrating when you could see that Iris in your garden. I know Daylily seedlings are passed around all the time - and there is a mess when people try to trade to if they got it in trade and what if it really is just a seedling that never made it or if it is the real thing...

rivers too deep for me.
Mitch Fitzgerald
Imageirisloverdee
Aug 30, 2011 9:51 AM CST
Name: Dee Stewart
Willamette Valley OR
Snowpeak Iris
Think about this Mitch, Keith does about 25,000 seedlings a year, tho many are to die for, either the stock, bud count, branching, form is not there, so they go in the compost pile, but awh there is one that has all those and is enough different that it would be a shame NOT to introduce it. Now if all the seedlings were given away, what do you think would happen, soon there would NO TRUE iris and the hybridizers would give up. Think of what the world would loose if this happened.

D
Denise Stewart
541-259-2343
Snowpeak http://snowpeakiris.com

ImageMitchF
Aug 30, 2011 10:07 AM CST
Name: Mitch Fitzgerald
Oklahoma
Dee -

I can see that... I really can... I guess there are just so many out there already but I can see it would make things pointless. What is sad to me is so few people even care about the names of anything... even their trees and shrubs let alone plants.
Mitch Fitzgerald
Imageirisloverdee
Aug 30, 2011 10:39 AM CST
Name: Dee Stewart
Willamette Valley OR
Snowpeak Iris
IF there were people out there that would just keep the lovely iris without trying to put names to it and passing it along and then somewhere there will someone that sells it...now you see the circle. We have many people on ebay that have come on DG and asked for ID and turn around and within months sell it as that, without taking the time to verify that it is correct by growing the guess next to the one you have to verify it is correct.

D
Denise Stewart
541-259-2343
Snowpeak http://snowpeakiris.com

ImageMitchF
Aug 30, 2011 10:46 AM CST
Name: Mitch Fitzgerald
Oklahoma
D starting to work on that myself I have some from my grandmother and great grandmother that I really want a name tied too... so will be gathering in the spring look likes it might be around them to see what they just might be. Then and only then will they have more than Grandmother's Noid 1 etc...
Mitch Fitzgerald
Imagepardalinum
Aug 30, 2011 12:05 PM CST
Name: Connie
Willamette Valley OR
I'm with Dee on this one. I have just one mart iris in my garden, supposedly Edith Wolford. As far as I know it looks like Edith but I can never be sure.

Somehow I think a lot of seedlings get put on the market through the "mart bags". And it isn't just irises! I have had gladiolas, dahlias, daylilies and lilies bloom completely different than what the name was supposed to be. Often the blooms were much less than what you would expect for a registered cultivar from a known hybridizer. It has taken me too many years to learn this lesson but it is pretty ingrained in me now.

Back in the 90's I purchased a group of daylily seedlings from the hybridizer Munson (known for his eye zones and watermarks, I think).
I have booted a few to the compost and still enjoy the others. They will go in the compost when and if I decide to get rid of them. I was not aware that this was really common amongst the daylily hybridizers.

Changing the subject just a little; seeds... Seeds are just the precursor to unnamed seedlings. The selling of daylily seeds is common on The Lily Auction. I don't recall ever seeing seeds of bearded iris for sale. The North American Lily Society has a huge exchange of seeds every year. These are mostly picked up by hybridizers looking to introduce some new genes into their work.

And I have considered selling excess seeds from my Japanese iris crosses. But wouldn't selling hybrid seeds (of any plant) be as bad as passing around seedlings?

Just looking for some opinions...
irisawe
Aug 30, 2011 3:02 PM CST
Name: Katherine Howe
Raytown(Kansas City) MO
I find this discussion somewhat confusing. I have studied parentage on many cultivars registered by reputable hybridizers in an effort to see what I might be able to do with my hobby. In that studying I have seen many references to a seedling number(no name) listed as a parent. I have seen many references to "sibling of..." a named and known cultivar listed as a parent(implying the parent was not registered but shared the same gene pool of a registered cultivar) but perhaps had some strong desirable characteristic that the hybridizer wanted in their offspring.

Aren't you ultimately saying that only named cultivars should be used and all others destroyed? Therefore, aren't you saying parents should be known in all cases? I have seen many listings of parents showing as 'unknown' as either one or even both parents. In its purest form of what you advocate, isn't destroying all but registered iris the result?

There will always be reputable and disreputable folks out there and when one becomes a hobbyist one learns through trial and error where the best and truest sources are for what you desire. That is part of the chase in the passion of the hobby. This is not going to change.

I bred Himalayan Persians at one time. As a hobbyist I was a purest and sought and sought to find the best I could. I wanted to get into showing them. The reputations of the breeders varied all over the country depending on who you spoke with. I burned away many hours on long distance calls, and publications and studying pedigrees and even found a mentor. There were many breeders that were breeding way below the standard just trying to financially gain by selling something that they could technically call a Himalayan in a sales add. For example, the standard called for deep blue eyes. In this one feature, the poorer pedigrees would produce horrid pale blue and even green or yellow or orange eye color. Reputable breeders had no shortage of people seeking offspring from their bloodlines, willing to pay the price for perfection. Many who purchased animals not up to standard were still happy with their purchase. They weren't wanting to pay the price and their goals were not the same as a potential show breeder would pursue. Anyone in the know could look at a new Himalayan kitten that someone had purchased and know instantly if it was from a serious breeder or someone just selling kittens for gain. I see alot of the same paradigm in the iris hobby. When you are serious you learn where to go to get the real deal and when you aren't you end up with something that meets that same level of caring. This just does not change from where I can see.
So my point is there are standards, but no one can really control what is done in the whole industry or in the name of the industry, so to speak. It will shake out as it deserves. Reputations will be established amongst those that care. The more one tries to control the uncontrollable the more one becomes frustrated and the enjoyment becomes affected. Should all the Himalayan kittens that are below standard be put down, should all seedlings that are not registered be destroyed? Could there be homes for all of them? I do not want to say I have the answers, but all I really want to do is enjoy the hobby I have chosen and do no harm.
Just a little more food for thought,

K

Katherine
ImagePollyK
Aug 30, 2011 3:07 PM CST
Name: Polly Kinsman
Hannibal, NY

Dee and I agree so much, I guess we need to disagree at some point.

I am not against trading or sharing any NOIDs. What I am against is people selling them as a named iris, or even coming on here and asking for a name AFTER we tell them it's impossible.

We irisarians are really a very small group of gardeners. We try so hard to keep our irises true to name. But the general public just wants a pretty iris, like they do a pretty foxglove or a violet.

One place I used to go to up north had a whole town that had Immortality blooming in their yard in the fall. It was beautiful up there in the fall I guarantee 90% of the people had no idea of the name, but yet they passed it around, and as far as I know never tried to sell it on ebay, nor came on here and asked for a name. It was just another pretty flower in their garden. Apparently they are a nice community up there and share.

Should the person next door not have got a piece of the beautiful white fall iris because the neighbor didn't know the name?

Now I am adamantly against the people on ebay selling the no name or wrongly named irises. Because a few of the buyers will attach those names and trade it as such. I'm very much against that, and Dee and I both rallied against someone who kept changing their name on ebay and doing just that.

But letting your neighbor or relative have a piece of a NOID, or seedling. I'm not at all against that. Tell them it is a NOID or seedling, and they are not to put a name on it. That doesn't mean they won't, but gardens across America are filled with NOIDS.

I bet for every one of us, there are a thousand people that don't care to label their irises, or their lilies, or like me, my sempervivums. And I don't think they should be without the beauty of irises just because they don't wish to do that.

And please, everyone. This is a great discussion. My feelings are not hurt in the least by people who don't agree with me. Keep the discussion going, I love to hear the different sides.

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