General Discussion forum: All Things Plants

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Mar 19, 2016 7:01 PM CST
Name: Arlyn
Whiteside Co, Illinois Zone 5A
I agree
Mar 20, 2016 3:07 AM CST
Name: Michele
One last commentary concerning this subject on my part. . .

I would have expected, at the very least, to be contacted BEFORE being removed from a site, a site that need I remind everyone, I had NEVER participated in before. This would have been, in my humble opinion, the very bottom line of courtesy and instead I was banished without notice and without explication. I still do not understand exactly why I am deemed to be somehow "unacceptable" or what on earth I did that was wrong, certainly after having seen other comments that are of very questionable taste (the piss on the Wheaties comment, for example). Has this person been banished?? It was a pretty damn rude thing to say. Perhaps they ought to be, but this is ONLY my opinion and thus has only the value that people are willing to give it! Therefore, this "explication"---if you can call it that---on Dave's part comes just a bit late. It is also pretty damned rude to give folks the axe without so much as contacting them first, even cowardly, however busy the people in question are. If they are indeed too busy to extend common courtesy to others, then maybe they should streamline their lives a bit. If Dave thinks that I cannot possibly contribute anything but strife and unrest to his precious ATP site, fine, that is his point of view. However: all I did was set Greg straight---very calmly---about my personal policy concerning my photographs, which he seemed to take very well and he also seemed to understand what I was talking about. Once again, for the record, my photos are my property and if I see fit to remove one that I had posted (perhaps this was the problem?), I don't see what's wrong with that. Once my plants are in a catalogue, on the market, or in people's gardens, there is nothing to prevent folks from taking their own photos of them; no one needs to appropriate mine without asking permission first.
Mar 20, 2016 3:43 AM CST
Name: Michele
Missed this earlier: I do not happen to be French. . . my "culture" is that of any American citizen, as I grew up and lived in the United States for the first 34 years of my life. I have always believed in expressing myself in a direct and clear way, especially when speaking of my present occupation.
Mar 20, 2016 9:03 AM CST
Name: Lucy
Hamilton, MA
Michele I don't have any problem with your posts, but then I am not running a site. I have made a couple comments myself & the 2 photos which are not mine, one I was given permission to use & another I asked for & it is from a person who sells photos so I only posted once. I am not good with photos or computers. Started the latter while in my 70s. Once pictures are posted on line them seem to flash around & we have been asked for photos of our plants for the iris wiki. Our present ones are on slides & we will take new ones so will take new ones for that purpose. I realize that it is different from the ATP data base & since I can confuse them I have not used the latter. I have been told one or two has been moved to the data base, but I don't mind. Certainly the person should have asked permission. Seedling pictures certainly should not be used without permission. However the people who happily move them are not hybridizers & should CERTAINLY ask permission.
Mar 20, 2016 9:27 AM CST
Name: Mary Ann
Absolutely agree. The internet is the source of many blessings -- but sadly, also many problems. Once photos are put *out there* -- there seems to be no control at all as to who uses them, and for what. I suspect that the people who use them without permission, have no idea that they are encroaching on the rights of others. And it's very hard to legislate against ignorance. Shrug!
Every day is a second chance. Every day is precious time.
Mar 20, 2016 2:35 PM CST
Name: Dee Stewart
Willamette Valley OR
Snowpeak Iris
I never had a problem with either Michele or Catherine, sometimes if people would think that other cultures to us can be classified as short but not. Part I know with most foreign languages to us in the USA are backwards but ours was the last....Both are very knowledgeable women

Denise Stewart

Mar 21, 2016 1:52 AM CST
Name: Michele
I really had thought that I'd finished saying what I had on my mind, but there is one thing more, something to think about: if Keith Keppel, Joe Ghio, Barry Blyth, Paul Black or any number of other hybridizers had said exactly what I said (which everyone here seems to agree was not at all out of line), no one would ever have thought for a split second of cancelling their membership. And think about this, too: it could be you someday, if you should decide to express a point of view that just happens to rub other people the wrong way and then someone suddenly decides you are just a little bit too «disruptive» or not «peaceful» enough when you actually had something important to say. Just saying.
Mar 21, 2016 6:39 AM CST
Name: Lucy
Hamilton, MA
The way of the world.
Mar 21, 2016 7:00 AM CST
Thank you for the comments I have been reading carefully. As you know I am French and do not have a 'high command' of your language. That may be could explain that the way I am expressing myself cannot be understood clearly. I wish then you to know that to be 'stern' has never been my purpose and that I never meant that.

I was among the first 300 ATP members. Quite funny that I became all the sudden very'disruptive' and to get 'fired' further to the post of a bright new member proved to be a philistine.

As far as French irises and the wrong information posted on ATP are concerned I would like to mention that being French I think that I am more aware than anyone else to speak about what is going on in my country and that I had the right to mention these mistakes further to the fact that both counries, France and the US agreed I was entitled to.

Iwas then more than surprised to be kicked out for that reason.

Any iris can be posted as far as it is right. Moderns or oldies. However HIPS has been created to discuss about historic irises and IDs, and they rely on descriptions. I am proud to be a member of this group as it is the only one sharing my interest for oldies. In my opinion ATP is not specialized in this matter and further to that I could not believe either that oldies were posted and wrong. i would have wished my request to delete either the wrong French irises either the ugly pictures of them taken into consideration to the benefit of both the database and the members.

The ATP 'moderators' could not post FRENCH historic irises for which even HIPS do not have descriptions for the good reason that had never been exported to the US and are listed in a very few French catalogues. It took me years to find some descriptions and I am still working on that matter since 10 years.

Any database manager knows that google search wll lead nowhere if the spelling is wrong.

It is also consistent to say that 'sharing" wrong data will increase the wrong information all over the web. I agree that the internet can be blessings but also harmful for the knowledge.

Michèle is right. According to whom is saying or doing something the reactions are different. I noticed that some of my photos were posted twice in the ATP database (one with my copyright and the other one with the wrong copyright). According to the copyright photos got acorns or thumbs up and it was mine did not raising any type of appreciation in spite of the fact that the photos were the same. Just saying.

I noticed also that the thread open on ATP regarding the wrong iriises was not 'appreciated' but the rude comment quoted in this thread got many thumbs up. Does that mean that rudeness is encouraged???? It is not my cup of tea.

Dave thank you for having removed my pictures from the ATP database.. However if you removed my account you also removed the right to see ATP. I am asking you to let me have the right to see the group unless you wish to play hide-and-go-seek or have something to hide. Right now I still have this error msg:
Database error: connect to host db_localhost failed
MySQL Error: ()
Session halted.
I am not used to enter the back door even if you perfectly know that it is possible. It would be more simple to let me in (not to touch but to have a look). Does this sound harmful to you or to anyone else?

It has to be very clear that I did not want to enter a fight. I have nothing personal against you, or Kent and Greg. It was just very disturbing to see wrong French irises approved

i am very proud of the French historic irises. You, in the US, should be proud and honoured with the work of an American citizen doing French irises winning a lot of prizes. As you know irises are not taking the nationaly of the hybridizer but the one of the country were they are grown. These very consistent rules have been set by the AIS and it does really make sense.

I have been learning a lot from Dee Stewart and i am very grateful to her, a lot from Michèle, from Milan Blazek, Phil Edinger, Terry Johnson and some others. There is always a place to discuss matters you are interested in either through private correspondence or public places like Cubits where I will be glad to post back, as the ATP door has been closed to me, and further to the fact that I have always met nice people here (including the three of you mentioned above). Bury the hatchet please.

Mar 21, 2016 9:33 AM CST
Name: Lucy
Hamilton, MA
It all seems so vey silly on their part. After all, one can not be an expert with all plants.
Mar 21, 2016 12:50 PM CST
Name: Marilyn Campbell
Houghton Lake, MI
I am very short on time, as I have to go to work, but Michele and C, I really feel bad about what is going on. I personally don't feel you did anything wrong, and your remarks were truthful. Wrong information should be corrected by the people that post that wrong information, and using pictures that don't belong to you without the owner's permission shouldn't be allowed, and just because you say something about what was done, certain people try to make it sound like you are making trouble by saying something about it. This is not true and totally unfair to both of you, and I agree with a lot of the things you both said above. Well, I have to go to work now, but needed to say something more about this or it would bother me until I did.
Mar 21, 2016 2:46 PM CST
Thank you for taking the time to write a word of support Marilyn. You are having 'guts' (it is a compliment)
Mar 22, 2016 4:34 AM CST
Name: Michele
Thanks very much, Marilyn, Dee and Lucy. . . I know that I am still, even now, very much in the dark about why on earth saying something honest or expressing one's point of view is seen as wrong. I know that there are lots of people drifting around the Net making trouble on purpose, but I am not one of them and neither is Clusiana. We both value the true and accurate. However, as the old saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink". Thanks to all of you for speaking up.
Mar 22, 2016 6:59 AM CST
Name: Mary Ann
Clusiana -- I read and appreciated your post above. I do believe the originating problem was just what you said -- English is not your native language, and your difficulty in expressing yourself in English made your post sound aggressive. This was enhanced by your use of capital letters, which in our language is to be interpreted as shouting, or anger. The "rude" response that you mentioned showed exactly how your post was received -- but was also tinged with levity, perhaps in an effort to diffuse the situation.

The problem with the internet is the same problem as has always been with the written word -- one is left to interpret what the poster is saying, because there are no visual clues to assist. It is therefore very easy to convey wrongly. Especially in exchanges between different languages and different cultures.

Michele -- I also am puzzled about this. I consider you both to be valuable members, and I am hoping that this issue can be resolved. I hope that you will both be open to that.
Every day is a second chance. Every day is precious time.
Mar 22, 2016 9:06 AM CST
Thank you for your comments Mary Ann

Having first tried to warn Dave, then Kent without any succes I must say that I did not understand why they did not want to listen to me, the matter being very serious to me and worthing to be taken into consideration for the reasons already mentioned. So I decided to write the post. I did not appreciate either the fact to be treated as a stupid one not able to understand that a procedure had been settled when irises were wrong, which I perfectly understand, however too many were wrong and I was not the one who had to clean the trash. I could not believe either that a description has been put to match a wrong iris. So I was mad. However I did not mean to shout or to be agressive in my post, just to warn the members who care about accuracy. Putting some words in capitals was to insist on them, nothing else. Then thank you for explaining to me that can be misinterpreted or not to be done. What do you do then when you want to insist on a word? May be I should have used bold letters but that means to use the BB code and takes more time.
It is very kind of you to try to calm down my feelings about the 'rude comment( but I do not think it was really 'tinged with levity'.)

That said I thought it was really interesting to raise the matter of the wrong inputs in the data base.
You have to know that the photos were taken in a collection I am vetting. The purpose was also to make believe that I was doing a shitty work. The man who did that is a very vicious one and I have nothing to do with this kind of people.

In France and even in Europe we cannot speak of data base. They can be very useful and I know that represents a lot of work for people taking care of them. When they are good they have to stay reliable and the fact that a French.person who just wants to grab the more irises to go and tell he has the bigger is something to be ashamed of and an insult to you in the US with posting wrong irises.

If you invite me to your house I will bring you a gift, not a bomb.

I thought that as far as the data base is created by US people it was a good deal to help with feeding them. They can be a fantastic tool for swapping knowledge and trends in different countries;

i dont know if this issue can be resolved or not. I have been dealing with a lot of countries, either in the raw materials field or the shipbrokers field. I never had these kind of problems. They are difficult fields in which diplomacy and knowing nationalistic thinkings are important.

Speaking about the French irises, I said no more than 'please delete as too many are wrong and other pictures are so ugly that you wont be able to recognise the iris'. To mention something wrong imeans that I care. Nothing else.
Mar 22, 2016 9:56 AM CST
Name: Mary Ann
I understand your passion. I do not know who the person is who is *vicious*. He is a French person? And he is responsible for posting incorrect photos and information pertaining to historic French Irises -- do I understand this correctly? And that that incorrect information has been transferred to the database at ATP?

Trying to recollect the conversation between you and Kent -- I think he was trying to express that he understood the issue, but would allow the ordinary workings of the membership to correct the problems, rather than dump the entire group of photos/information? So you were at an impasse. I don't understand who it is that is trying to imply that you are doing *shitty* work -- I hope you don't think that someone at ATP is thinking that way. I do believe that the only problem at this end is that your posts were insistent and forceful in opposing the decision that had been made by the administrators at ATP. In that regard, we all must accept the decisions made by the administrators, whether we agree with them or not. Otherwise, the forum would be in constant upheaval.

Incidentally -- the humor in the *rude comment* may be an entirely American thing. I will tell you that I chuckled when I read it. Perhaps I would not have seen the humor so much if it had been directed at me -- but it was not an ugly and mean thing to say, meant to insult you. I took it as a reaction of surprise to unexpected rancor on your part -- a reaction to what was said, not who said it. I hope that makes sense.

That you care is evident. And you are correct in your evaluation of the value of the databases. I hope that these conversations will serve to soften the impact of the issue, and allow everyone to move forward without enmity.
Every day is a second chance. Every day is precious time.
Mar 22, 2016 11:24 AM CST
I understand your passion. I do not know who the person is who is *vicious*. He is a French person? And he is responsible for posting incorrect photos and information pertaining to historic French Irises -- do I understand this correctly? And that that incorrect information has been transferred to the database at ATP?

Yes you have understood correctly.
The incorrect information has been transferred to the database at ATP yes. You know, first you are doing data proposals or if the data are already registered, you upload a photo.
The man changed his real name under which he registered first on ATP to AndreA33. (member from December 15, 2015).

I am quoting you comments that way as I do not know how to quote just part of the text.

I had no answer to the question 'on what did you rely to approve the data base entries which were wrong'
I have no answe from Dave about let me look at ATP so I wont be able to know if these wrong irises will stay or not.

i understand the rules and never think about changing them. I warned the site owner in private first.

i never thought either that any ATP or Cubits members could think I was doing a 'shitty' work. I said that as I was vetting the iris collection where the photos have been taken and that that was a way to make believe that I did the mistake first. I mentioned and it is really my opinion that no one had the right to take pictures in that purpose when a public iris collection is on a vetting process. You can do what you want with your irises and photos, you do not have the right to involve others and to damage the reputation of the French administration. This matter is much more than wrong irises in the database. So you can take pictures anywhere but not to post them when you do not know what you are speaking about. I am speaking only for my country and further to years of work to put the things straight with the help of the most knowledgeable autorities in the iris world.

Thank you for your comments. I really appreciate and you warmed me up.

Mar 22, 2016 1:58 PM CST
Name: Lucy
Hamilton, MA
On the internet capital letters means that you are raising your voice--more so than just emphasis. Perhaps underlining the word would be better. I have capitalized one word to emphasis but perhaps I should underline things myself. I don't know anything about the correct way to do this, but perhaps underlining a word might work better. It is worth a try.
Mar 22, 2016 3:51 PM CST
Thank you Lucy.I have been thinking about that and wondering.I think that in French grammar capital letters used in a text are to emphasize and that's all. I will check this out as I should not use this to 'raise my voice'. I am not an 'internet addict'. Internet is a tool to get in touch with the world or to share any kind of interest or knowledge with the rest of the world. A computer is a tool I always used to work, not to play. I mean using softwares needed to work. Howevere I would have to find back a book 'the net etiquette' to check if at the time I bought it the spirit was the same and if he was telling so about capital letters. May be the rules were not the same bewteen our two continents.
The undernlining is not possible with the BB code, the only way to change the text, either to center it, to put it in italic, or in bold. ____________trying to underline!! Smiling ___________
Mar 22, 2016 4:35 PM CST
Name: Bonnie Sojourner
Harris Brake, Arkansas, zone 7
The Magnolia Zone
to underline a word type [u] then type your word or phrase. Follow that with the same type of bracket with a u in it but put a forward slash in front of the u. make sure brackets enclose both the u at the beginning and the /u at the end. If this does not make sense I will try and send you a better example.

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