Juglone Tolerant Plants forum: Juglone tolerant plants in my garden

 
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Imagezuzu
Aug 7, 2010 3:24 PM CST
Name: Zuzu
Northern California
zone 9
Here, Stormy, is the list of plants growing under my black walnut tree. I have to preface this by saying I'm not pro-Juglone, but I do think it's blamed for the effects of a variety of other negative factors.

I have never seen Juglone affect any of my plants negatively, but there are plants I have never grown under the tree, simply because they need more sun, so I wouldn't doubt that it might have an adverse effect on tropical hibiscus, for example. I also want to point out that I live in a location that's a gardening paradise -- perfect weather, perfect soil, perfect drainage. All of those things might be counteracting some of the negative effects.

I can't take a photo of the entire tree. I'd have to be in a helicopter for that, but I do have a photo of the trunk. The container on the ground to the left of the tree is a 5-gallon container, so you can judge the size of the trunk in scale with that.

The reason I'm showing you a picture of the trunk is to ward off any suspicion that my tree is not old enough to have done any damage. The tree was here when I moved in 26 years ago and who knows how long before that..

.Thumb of 2010-08-07/zuzu/c56856
Imagezuzu
Aug 7, 2010 3:33 PM CST
Name: Zuzu
Northern California
zone 9
I'll list the plants in order of how close they are to the trunk. Anything that's growing within 10 feet is also growing beyond that, but I won't repeat the names in subsequent lists.

The plants in direct contact with the trunk are a species rose, a Lapageria vine, and a white potato vine (Solanum). I'm going to be mixing Latin names with common names all over the place because time is of the essence, so I can't Google everything.

So, the plants growing within a radius of 10 feet from the trunk are:

Aquilegias
Azaleas
Begonias
Camellias
Clematis
Fuchsias
Geraniums
Hellebores
Hydrangeas
Impatiens
Lapageria
Primulas
Rhododendrons
Roses -- species, hybrid teas, and polyanthas
Violas
Weigelas
Imagezuzu
Aug 7, 2010 3:39 PM CST
Name: Zuzu
Northern California
zone 9
Plants within a radius of 15 feet are all of the above, plus the following:

Astilbes
Brunneras
Campanulas
Cinerarias
Corydalis
Cyclamen
Daylilies
Dianthus
Feverfew
Heucheras
Heucherellas
Hostas
Irises -- bearded, Siberian, and Japanese
Japanese Anemones
Lychnis
Pear tree
Plumbago
Roses (the categories above, plus any other category)
[Last edited Aug 7, 2010 4:04 PM CST]
Quote | Post #350229 (3)
Imagezuzu
Aug 7, 2010 3:46 PM CST
Name: Zuzu
Northern California
zone 9
Plants within a radius of 20-25 feet (still well under the tree canopy and pelted by the nuts) are all of the above, plus the following:

Agapanthus
Alstroemerias
Brugmansias
Brunfelsia
Buddleias
Cannas
Dahlias
Dianellas
Dogwoods
Filipendulas
Forsythias
Kerrias
Lilacs
Mandevilla Laxa
Matilija poppies
Pelargoniums
Philadelphus
Peonies
Rose of Sharon
Salvias
Silk Mimosa
Solanum (the blue bush)
Spiraeas
Thalictrum
Imagezuzu
Aug 7, 2010 4:02 PM CST
Name: Zuzu
Northern California
zone 9
Okay, there are also dozens and dozens of Alpine plants, most of the names of which I can't come up with unless I check my files, but they include Lewisias, Gentianas, and a variety of other things.

The bulbs I grow under the tree are Anemone, Babiana, Crocosmia, Crocus, Daffodils, Ixia, Freesias, Ranunculus, Sparaxis, and tons of others I can't remember because there's no sign of them now.

And then there's the Arum. I hate Arum. It takes over my entire garden between October and March. The entire area under the tree is covered (plagued?) with Arum, so it obviously doesn't mind Juglone.

I've probably forgotten several important plants and will add them as I remember them.

I don't take many photos of this part of my garden because, as everyone knows, I'm a rose fiend and I concentrate on rose closeups in my photography, but I do have this photo I took to show some friends that it was raining in April (a rare occurrence here).

I'm standing next to the trunk to stay dry, and the plants in this view include Azaleas, Camellias, Clematis, Hydrangeas, Irises, Primulas, Rhododendrons, and various others, and you can see a branch of the pear tree at the top of the fence line on the left margin. The trunk of the pear tree is no more than 12 feet from the Black Walnut trunk. That's supposed to be a major no-no within 50 feet, but this pear produces pears every year without fail.

Thumb of 2010-08-07/zuzu/780bdd
Imagestormyla
Aug 7, 2010 7:47 PM CST
Name: Stormy
Valley Forge Pa
I Love MAM ~ So Happy Together
That's a lovely garden ZuZu. Wow, that is some list you provided and I can't thank you enough for it. Now I'm going to compare your list with some of the ones that I have from Universities. They tend to drive me crazy because some of them show the same plant on both the tolerant and the intolerant lists.

You make a good point about your growing conditions. First all plants that need sun will perform better under trees in your area than mine. Face it, California is brilliantly sunny. Pa. is known for it's grey days, although not in my little corner of the state. But I think that the biggest influence on the effects of Juglone in your soil may be the drainage. i know that you don't get much water for months at a time, but you do receive significant amounts during the months after the leaves have fallen.

That is a hugh trunk on that Black Walnut tree. It must have some good age to it. Arum Italicum is very well behaved in my garden. Again it is planted in the deepest shade part of my shade garden. The clumps expand in size, but it does not travel outside of the clump.

Now my friends who live across the river in New Jersey which has temperatures on average of 5 to 12 degrees warmer than here and where the sunlight brilliance is probably 5 times as much as here, tell a whole different story. I've seen it pop up everywhere in their yards. They also have a whole lot of sand mixed in their soil, so that may have something to do with it too.

The drainage under my Black Walnut is OK, but not excellent. I never blame the juglone for killing a plant unless I've tried it 3 times at various spots under the Black Walnut tree. My garden is also plagued with voles, so they could be the problem for some plant failures. Also there are Ailanthus and Norway Maple trees growing within the root zone of my Black Walnut tree and those two trees also are allelopathic.

Imagemagnolialover
Aug 31, 2010 6:54 AM CST
Name: Tc / Tracey
Wisconsin
I'll add lilies and peonies to what my experiences tell me. Both seem quite tolerant.
Imagestormyla
Aug 31, 2010 9:18 AM CST
Name: Stormy
Valley Forge Pa
I Love MAM ~ So Happy Together
Tracey, Thank you. That is my experience too.

I have recently read quite a few sources that say that soil moisture has a hugh effect on the toxicity of Juglone. The wetter the soil, the more harmful the effect. ZuZu tells me there is no rain in her garden the entire summer. So if her soil were a bit wetter, some of the plants which grow well for her now might not.

After reading a number of truly scientific reports on Juglone these past few weeks, I now understand why there is so much contradictory information published about Juglone. There are just too many variables in each individual garden situation that can impact the toxins. Most true scientists fail to draw any conclusions at all.

The organic matter content of the soil and the quantity and diversity of the microherd as well as the presence of Juglone nullifying organisms and plants will also alter the Juglone's properties.
Imagezuzu
Aug 31, 2010 2:22 PM CST
Name: Zuzu
Northern California
zone 9
Tracey, you're absolutely right. Lilies and peonies should be on my list too. They were left off inadvertently.

While it's true that I have no rain between April and November, I do water the garden daily, and that creates just as much moisture, if not more.
Imagestormyla
Aug 31, 2010 3:08 PM CST
Name: Stormy
Valley Forge Pa
I Love MAM ~ So Happy Together
Are you sure ZuZu? With this drought that we've had, I can run the sprinkler for 6 & 8 hours and the water still doesn't penetrate below the top inch of soil.
Imagezuzu
Aug 31, 2010 3:27 PM CST
Name: Zuzu
Northern California
zone 9
That's rather extreme. I'm sure 15 minutes of sprinkling in my garden would penetrate beyond that level. Someone in Dave's Garden suggested long ago that drainage is the key. I have very good soil as far as drainage is concerned, so maybe that's why I can grow whatever I want under the tree.
Imagestormyla
Aug 31, 2010 3:39 PM CST
Name: Stormy
Valley Forge Pa
I Love MAM ~ So Happy Together
Drainage is very important.

We have all in the Mid Atlantic come to realize what a giant sponge our earth is in a draught. None of us found that even all day sprinkling went below the top inch of soil. It was so frustrating. Spot watering didn't work as the moisture spread sideways and not down.

Unless there are leaves on the ground, the surface water shouldn't affect this. Walnuts have deep taproots, not surface shallow roots, so we are talking about deeper soil moisture here.

Aside from walnut leaves laying on the plants and soil no annuals should be bothered as most of them are shallow rooted and their roots never enter the danger zone of the BW roots.
Imagemagnolialover
Aug 31, 2010 5:31 PM CST
Name: Tc / Tracey
Wisconsin
The truth be known, there are a lot more choices out there than most people think. Growing up my dad couldn't figure out, year after year, why his poor tomatoes were dying. One year someone told him, I think I was about 12, so it wasn't me Smiling . So I know that's on the "can't make it" list:tomatoes are a no go or no grow Smiling
Imagestormyla
Aug 31, 2010 5:43 PM CST
Name: Stormy
Valley Forge Pa
I Love MAM ~ So Happy Together
Well yes, and supposedly so are all solanaceae, but many people report some of them including tomatoes as doing fine. Again, I think it has to do with the individual conditions within the garden itself. Some tomatoes have much larger and more extensive root systems than others . Some, depending on their location may not come into any contact with that particular tree's roots.

I think that I may create a possibly/maybe category for all of those plants that fall on both sides of the tolerant/susceptible list.

ZuZu, Do most of your plants that are under the Black Walnut keep their foliage year round? Is it cold enough where you live for them to go dormant?
Imagezuzu
Aug 31, 2010 6:28 PM CST
Name: Zuzu
Northern California
zone 9
It's cold enough here for some things to go dormant. I do have to fool the roses into thinking they're going dormant by pruning them heavily.

The rhodies, camellias, and azaleas are evergreen, of course, but the rest do just what they're supposed to do in winter, either losing their leaves (dogwoods, hydrangeas, etc.) or dying down completely to the ground (Filipendula, Canna, etc.). Some plants thrive in winter, of course: Cyclamen, Primulas, etc. They're the ones that almost vanish in summer, but they look fabulous in winter.
Imagestormyla
Aug 31, 2010 6:40 PM CST
Name: Stormy
Valley Forge Pa
I Love MAM ~ So Happy Together
The reason that I ask pertains to the use of walnut leaves as mulch. Last year I mulched mine and saw no ill effects. Sure I had some plants not return, but that happens every year.I put a lot of top dressings on my beds before I put them to sleep and the leaves go on last.

If the plants are dormant I don't see how the Juglone from the leaves (the smallest concentration) could possibly hurt them as it degrades and is gone completely in two months. Even if rain or snow succeeded in pushing some juglone down into their root level, how long would that take and what significant amount of Juglone would still be in the leaves by that time. Organisms in the soil would also be metabolising it at the same time.
Imagezuzu
Aug 31, 2010 7:51 PM CST
Name: Zuzu
Northern California
zone 9
I just let the leaves and nuts stay where they fall.
Imagestormyla
Aug 31, 2010 7:54 PM CST
Name: Stormy
Valley Forge Pa
I Love MAM ~ So Happy Together
ZuZu, Do you see very many earth worms in that area?
Imagezuzu
Aug 31, 2010 8:33 PM CST
Name: Zuzu
Northern California
zone 9
I don't really know, Stormy. They aren't something I keep track of. I usually run into them when I dig holes, but I can't say whether I run into them in every location.
Imagestormyla
Aug 31, 2010 8:42 PM CST
Name: Stormy
Valley Forge Pa
I Love MAM ~ So Happy Together
Thanks, ZuZu. I'm having difficulty finding much of anything other than repeated heresay on the subject of worms and Juglone Toxicity.

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Cubit owner: stormyla